VihtaVuori seems to make some seriously high energy pistol powders. I haven't found any US powder data that would push a bullet anywhere near that fast within SAAMI pressure. I'm slightly suspicious of the VV data, but they are a very well respected company.
.38 Super 1911?
- Thread starter LHRGunslinger
- Start date
- Status
VihtaVuori seems to make some seriously high energy pistol powders. I haven't found any US powder data that would push a bullet anywhere near that fast within SAAMI pressure. I'm slightly suspicious of the VV data, but they are a very well respected company.
Agreed. I have wanted another 38 Super for years and I was torn between getting a great gun like another Baer or a Colt, I finally broke down and bought the Colt.
Once I had it, the reality set in that it is a loose as a goose Colt when I was used to my tight as a tick Baer's. My "National Match" barrel has chatter marks and the trigger is series 80 which basically needs a full rework.
So here I sit with my nice Colt 38 Super looking at about $500 of upgrades or $800 if I want to tighten it up and add accurails.
Since it is what I wanted all along. It says Colt 38 Super on the slide and I really like it, I am going to do it. I am just working on the when right now, not the if.
"No good reason, as long as it's a Colt."
I totally understand!
Once I had it, the reality set in that it is a loose as a goose Colt when I was used to my tight as a tick Baer's. My "National Match" barrel has chatter marks and the trigger is series 80 which basically needs a full rework.
So here I sit with my nice Colt 38 Super looking at about $500 of upgrades or $800 if I want to tighten it up and add accurails.
Since it is what I wanted all along. It says Colt 38 Super on the slide and I really like it, I am going to do it. I am just working on the when right now, not the if.
"No good reason, as long as it's a Colt."
I totally understand!
Besides being noticeably more loose and tougher "triggered" than the Baer, how does it shoot? I have found that "loose" Colts can still deliver 3-4" or BETTER at 25 yards, and I'll bet yours can do better, since it has some sights you can see. So it won't do 1.5" @25 like the Baer, and has a mushy trigger. Under a stress situation, they are both hampered by the fact that the shooter might only be capable of 6" @ 25 yards when the adrenaline is pumping, and thus, you might never realize the difference in a real defensive situation. Spend the money, or leave it as is, it still looks to be a fine gun, and a real steal, since it was a limited issue.
Neither this pistol or my Baer's would ever be used in a stress situation. Only lovingly carried to the range. Shot and then lovingly clean and carefully stored away.
Stress situations are reserved for things like the P7PSP.
Also the Baer is 1.5" at 50 yards, not 25.
It shoots ok. The barrel has some issues with rough rifling so I will probably have it rebuilt. I am still shooting it out to see if it is worth the rebuilding or just park the Colt and buy another 38 Super 1911 to shoot. Part of me is thinking that way now. The costs to rebuild the Colt to a shooter are significant when I could just buy an Baer 38 super and be happy.
Stress situations are reserved for things like the P7PSP.
Also the Baer is 1.5" at 50 yards, not 25.
It shoots ok. The barrel has some issues with rough rifling so I will probably have it rebuilt. I am still shooting it out to see if it is worth the rebuilding or just park the Colt and buy another 38 Super 1911 to shoot. Part of me is thinking that way now. The costs to rebuild the Colt to a shooter are significant when I could just buy an Baer 38 super and be happy.
Can you actually shoot 1.5"@50yds out of the Baer? I can't focus on the sights/target anymore to shoot that well at 50 yards. That's why I question "practical" accuracy.
Actually I have done it. I have even posted pictures of the feat and talked about it.
It is really and I mean really hard to do. You need to get a good stable rest. No coffee that day, winds need to be calm. Sky's clear and you need to concentrate. What I have found is I can get off the first 3 to 5 shots in really tight cluster. Maybe an inch at 50 yrds. Then I really get the shakes and eyes start watering and I blow either the 6 or 7th shot. If I can make it to 7. I can almost guarantee I will throw the 8th.
On my best groups I don't even look at the target. I just concentrate and shoot then take a peak when I am done. If you look you blow it at least for me.
Why did I buy the 1.5" option? To know that the gun is capable of it. I have to work at it but I know my gun can do it and that is what matters to me.
Come on and think about it. It was only $295 for the peace of mind to know that I have a gun that is guaranteed to be 1.5" or better accuracy at 50 yrds. That is a no brainer. Just the knowledge that the gun can do it is worth more to me then the $295 would be or even the practice I would get from that much ammo. Even reloading that is only a few thousand 10mm's so I would not gain as much or try as hard as I do because of the guarantee.
Here is my 2 10mm's with factory targets. Baer does not use expensive targets but their target for 8 at 50 is nearly as good as the DW is for 7 at 50 ft.
I just noticed that the RZ is 8 years old now. Wow time flies.
It is really and I mean really hard to do. You need to get a good stable rest. No coffee that day, winds need to be calm. Sky's clear and you need to concentrate. What I have found is I can get off the first 3 to 5 shots in really tight cluster. Maybe an inch at 50 yrds. Then I really get the shakes and eyes start watering and I blow either the 6 or 7th shot. If I can make it to 7. I can almost guarantee I will throw the 8th.
On my best groups I don't even look at the target. I just concentrate and shoot then take a peak when I am done. If you look you blow it at least for me.
Why did I buy the 1.5" option? To know that the gun is capable of it. I have to work at it but I know my gun can do it and that is what matters to me.
Come on and think about it. It was only $295 for the peace of mind to know that I have a gun that is guaranteed to be 1.5" or better accuracy at 50 yrds. That is a no brainer. Just the knowledge that the gun can do it is worth more to me then the $295 would be or even the practice I would get from that much ammo. Even reloading that is only a few thousand 10mm's so I would not gain as much or try as hard as I do because of the guarantee.
Here is my 2 10mm's with factory targets. Baer does not use expensive targets but their target for 8 at 50 is nearly as good as the DW is for 7 at 50 ft.
I just noticed that the RZ is 8 years old now. Wow time flies.
Have you bought your Colt yet?
I was researching the Super when I came across this 'old' thread.
I bought this plain Jane Colt about 7 years ago, like my other Colts, it shot out of the box;
Over time it's become a well used carry at my place and it and a Para in 38 Super have been used on a number of vermin, including a few close calls. This has become one of my favorite calibers to handload for, paying special attention to load for the bullet and not the caliber. As an example, this mild load pushed this 124gr Gold Dot beyond its velocity design;
One of the main reasons I decided to reopen this thread was to help answer questions and define what the Super is capable of doing at reasonable operating pressures, ie, <33,350psi.
We know from water testing and verified by feral goat culling in Australia that the upper velocity limits of the 124gr XTP is in the upper 1300s to low 1400s, perhaps one of the reasons why why Wilson limits its 124gr XTP ammunition to ~1335fps.
We also know that Hornady uses the same load data for 124gr and 125gr XTPs, the latter being the same bullet used for the 357mag. In using the same Hornady data for both bullets, they chronogrphed w/I 4fps of each other. The biggest problem I had with using Hornady data for N105 powder was that the powder weights were too low for reliable slide functioning with the factory Colt recoil springs and a new Para.
This is where things get interesting, enter Sierra #5 manual with their increased N105 powder weights compared to Hornady data. Over a period of time and chronographing different bullet designs, including 125gr Gold Dots and XTPs, not only were factory 357 SIG velocities attained, but one under max load through the Para was pushing the 125gr Gold Dot at ~1435fps.
I had also read the VihtaVuori website data about N105 powder pushing 124grs into the upper 1500s and was very skeptical it could be done because there wasn't enough space in the casing to hold the weight of powder needed for those uber velocities.
VihtaVuori #4 (2006) reduced the max powder weight considerably, a narrower load window than Sierra, although their is a slight overlap, VihtaVuori still packs slightly more powder.
For those who wish to push the Super to very fast MVs while keeping operating pressures under 33,350psi, I strongly suggest VihtaVuori #4 and N105. N105 is a single perforated neutral powder. Most handgun powders we use to handload are classified as degressive, meaning they have a high pressure spike, Pmax, that drops off sharply as the bullet travels down the bore. N105 as a neutral powder, has a lower Pmax, yet it retains a higher bore pressure than degressive powders. Total pressure under the pressure curve is basically the same. The closest analogy I can think of is the very high operating pressures (40,000+psi?) of the 9x23mm to push 125grs to ~1450fps and under max 125gr/N105 knocking on 1500fps.
Here's a recovered 125gr XTP that had an under max loading that chronographed at 1491fps;
A second chrono test showed 1486fps through the Colt, low extreme spreads with N105. Loaded this way, the Super is literally a 357mag in a 1911, but with unmatched split times.
Last winter I had a situation with a coyote. I was out with my German Shepherd off leash when we noticed a coyote at distance going from right to left, it noticed us, changed direction and trotted toward us. The GSD is trained to sit when I draw and he did so as the coyote approached.
Different coyote, pic is zoomed in at ~60 yards. The coyote that was advancing was guesstimated to be at ~75-80 yards, far enough away that its ears were well within the width of my rear sight. Fixed sights being what they are on the Colt, the 125gr XTP tore into the 'yote's shoulder and the distance turned out to be 95 yards, on a moving target.
No longer made by Para, but a nice carry and BBQ piece ;
Can't say about others, but I find the Super to be a very versatile carry, great for the Southwest environment when a flat shooting and accurate caliber is a requirement is needed.
bannockburn
Member
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2007
- Messages
- 26,320
The /38 Super has always been one of my favorite catridges, usually in a Commander size gun. I also like the fact that the conversion to shooting less expensive 9mm. in the same gun really only requires a barrel assembly and a magazine in that caliber.
Cocked & Locked
Member
That describes me as well as the .38 Super. Could be one reason I like that cartridge.
Great looking Springer, I wish Springfield still made the Super, I'd like to own one.That describes me as well as the .38 Super. Could be one reason I like that cartridge.
I like nickel too and bought this Super to match up with a M29/6.5";
I was thinking about a Baer P2 in Super, but it looks like I'll be getting a Fusion rail Super instead.
Cocked & Locked
Member
I also have this off brand .38 Super. Got this one when RIA first came out with the shiny ones. It has a ramped barrel as does the Springfield Armory one.
I've had two other RIA .38 Supers...one other nickel and one parkerized one. The 2nd (and newer) nickel RIA did not have the ramped barrel so I sold it. It was a replacement from RIA as the park'd one self destructed in short order.
flashy...
I've had two other RIA .38 Supers...one other nickel and one parkerized one. The 2nd (and newer) nickel RIA did not have the ramped barrel so I sold it. It was a replacement from RIA as the park'd one self destructed in short order.
flashy...
ApacheCoTodd
member
With the .38 Super (and 9x23), "hotness" for me is delivered in terms of very flat shooting, hard hitting and 75 yard confidence all coming out of a reliable and familiar 1911 platform.
Since I stay away from the deepest end of the .357 pool they present as nicely comparable given the vast differences in my .38 autos and .357 platforms.
Since I stay away from the deepest end of the .357 pool they present as nicely comparable given the vast differences in my .38 autos and .357 platforms.
Attachments
I have duplicated the CorBon .38 super load with VV N105, and got a true 1350 with a 124/125gr bullet. I have also gotten a 147gr JHP to about 1200, and that is about as close to a .357 from a 4" barrel that I'm going to try in the Super, but that is so close, that if you were shot with either, you probably would not know the difference. Do we really need more, or need to hotrod the thing? I am content with such, and the Super blows the 9mm +P+ away when you get to the "heavy" 147's.....the 9mm just can't do it. That is where the .38 Super shines and exceeds the high pressure 9's. .357 Sig is an interesting cartridge, but it's short neck makes it difficult to hold a bullet with enough friction to prevent bullet setback unless all things are perfect. Any variations in die tolerances or case neck thickness can throw a wrench in the gears. The Super does not suffer from that.
Do we really need more, or need to hotrod the thing? I am content with such, and the Super blows the 9mm +P+ away when you get to the "heavy" 147's.....the 9mm just can't do it. That is where the .38 Super shines and exceeds the high pressure 9's. .357 Sig is an interesting cartridge, but it's short neck makes it difficult to hold a bullet with enough friction to prevent bullet setback unless all things are perfect. Any variations in die tolerances or case neck thickness can throw a wrench in the gears. The Super does not suffer from that.
rfwobbly
Member
Another vote for 38 Super.
38 Super was the original +P round. In a modern 1911 (post-1990) and handloaded, this thing can really be something. The newer brass (38S Super Comp and 38 Todd Jarret) can let you use consistently higher pressures. Mags hold 9-10 rounds and are easily had. Reloaders find that the powders, primers and bullets are all common to the 9x19.
If you just want to play with one, then Rock Island/Armscor sells a basic model for ~$400 with 2 mags. The Kimber Target II starts about $950.
Conversion barrels to 9x23 Win (which share the same basic form factor and mags as 38S) turn your pistol into a laser pointer.
I'm impressed.
38 Super was the original +P round. In a modern 1911 (post-1990) and handloaded, this thing can really be something. The newer brass (38S Super Comp and 38 Todd Jarret) can let you use consistently higher pressures. Mags hold 9-10 rounds and are easily had. Reloaders find that the powders, primers and bullets are all common to the 9x19.
If you just want to play with one, then Rock Island/Armscor sells a basic model for ~$400 with 2 mags. The Kimber Target II starts about $950.
Conversion barrels to 9x23 Win (which share the same basic form factor and mags as 38S) turn your pistol into a laser pointer.
I'm impressed.
Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook:
38 Super - Page 145
13.9 grains Lil' Gun yields 1,383 fps from a 5" barrel
357 Magnum - Page 160
22.0 grains H110 yields 1,506 from a 4" barrel
Of course brave hand loaders might can "improve" on both but the basics are for absolute top loads, the 38 Super cannot beat a .357 in either MV or ME
147 grain bullet it's 38 Super at 1,180 fps using 11.4 grains Lil' Gun and 1,434 fps for the 357 Magnum using 16.5 grains N110. Same 5" and 4" barrels respectively.
I can duplicate these loads as shown by my PACT2 chronograph.
38 Super - Page 145
13.9 grains Lil' Gun yields 1,383 fps from a 5" barrel
357 Magnum - Page 160
22.0 grains H110 yields 1,506 from a 4" barrel
Of course brave hand loaders might can "improve" on both but the basics are for absolute top loads, the 38 Super cannot beat a .357 in either MV or ME
147 grain bullet it's 38 Super at 1,180 fps using 11.4 grains Lil' Gun and 1,434 fps for the 357 Magnum using 16.5 grains N110. Same 5" and 4" barrels respectively.
I can duplicate these loads as shown by my PACT2 chronograph.
Personally, I don't need the 38 Super. I had one in the past and the powders, cases, platforms were fine - I just never trusted the bullets. Most .355 bullets are designed around a lower 9mm velocities, and most .357 bullets weren't designed for semi-auto use. That might well have changed now, but I no longer think I need the additional velocity.
I am another fan of the 38 Super.
Barrels that head space on the case mouth are a must for accuracy. The older barrels that head spaced on the rim did not lend themselves to being accurate and limited the success of the cartridge.
I think the transition to head spacing on the case mouth was starting in the late 1980s to early 1990s so if one bought a use M1911 in 38 Super, a barrel change might be in order.
But, my head-space-on-the-rim barrel made in the 1980s was accurate with 160 SWC cast bullets. Unfortunately, these SWCs will not work in a head-space-on-the-mouth barrels as the bullet shoulder catches on the end of the chamber.
Barrels that head space on the case mouth are a must for accuracy. The older barrels that head spaced on the rim did not lend themselves to being accurate and limited the success of the cartridge.
I think the transition to head spacing on the case mouth was starting in the late 1980s to early 1990s so if one bought a use M1911 in 38 Super, a barrel change might be in order.
But, my head-space-on-the-rim barrel made in the 1980s was accurate with 160 SWC cast bullets. Unfortunately, these SWCs will not work in a head-space-on-the-mouth barrels as the bullet shoulder catches on the end of the chamber.
RainDodger
Member
I've found Lil'Gun to be a poor performer in the Super, compared to other powders. From six years ago;
140gr XTP (.357 caliber), R-P +P, WSP, Colt 1911,
11.8grs Lil'Gun,
5@1072fps, ES 23fps, SD 09fps.
Another test, 108°F ambient temperature, put a 147gr (.355) squarely in factory mag territory using less powder;
Win nickel +P, WSP, Colt 1911,
9.0grs AA#7,
5@1288fps, ES 31fps,
Factory Remington 357/158gr SJHP is rated at 1240fps.
Factory Remington 357/125gr SJHP chronographs 1456fps through a 4" Dan Wesson.
Colt 1911, 125gr XTP (.357), R-P +P, Fed 100;
10.2grs N105,
1491fps, ES 48fps.
10.0grs N105, WSP,
1436fps, ES 28fps, SD 10fps.
VihtaVuori powder load range data is from 9.9grs to 10.4grs, operating pressure <33,350psi.
Calculated recoil of a loaded Colt 1911 with the 10.2gr load is;
6.28 ft/lbs, 12.12fps (9.68fps bullet - 2.44fps powder).
My worst split times, cold and windy day with exposed - bare hands, ranged from .16-.21 seconds. Not too bad for a senior shooting an outdated and past its usefulness platform/ caliber.
Last edited:
peacemaker45
Member
I've got a LW Commander in .38 Super. It's fast becoming my primary CCW choice. I've never been a fan of .45 in a lightweight gun, and less so since I accidentally became left handed. The Super, in making a different kind of power to the .45 makes for more manageable recoil. Also, ten plus one with all that's good in the 1911 is just nice too.
It's not that I don't like big heavy bullets, I just think they belong in big heavy guns.
Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2
It's not that I don't like big heavy bullets, I just think they belong in big heavy guns.
Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2
I traded a S&W 686+ for this one a couple of years ago. My friend threw in 10 boxes of ammo. This one still had the box, and I've since swapped out the stocks for a set of black buffalo horn. I also picked up a EAA Witness in .38 Super, and they're both tack drivers.
- Status
Similar threads
