Number of automatic weapons in U.S.?

ATF knows exactly how many legally registered full auto guns there are in the US, after-all, THEY are the agency the guns are registered with....

There's actually 46 of them, we just keep passing them around on Gunbroker.

ATF knows exactly how many legally registered full auto guns there are in the US, after-all, THEY are the agency the guns are registered with....

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You'd THINK so, wouldn't you?

But no. They openly admit there are legit Form 4s out there which they no longer have copies to. That's why you HAVE to keep your own copies, and absolutely MUST even more especially locate and retain registration forms for any older Title II items in your family or whatever. There's a decent chance the yellowed, deteriorated, withered copy the current, perhaps elderly, owner has is the only copy anywhere. Lose it and that gun is now an illegal unregistered firearm with no recourse.

As THEY don't know, rest assured WE don't either!

Best estimate I've seen was something under 290,000. But nothing definitive.

Don't know if it is true, but I have seen registered numbers of around 286,000 MGs, don't know about other NFA items.

Y'all are just talking pre-'86 automatics.... There are others as well, I've shot many of them.

Y'all are just talking pre-'86 automatics....

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Thats what I was thinking... Course only Pre-May matters to the average Joe here...They are still being produced so who knows.

Fewer every day, whatever the number is...

...all according to plan *finger pyramid of evil contemplation*

TCB

Sam1911 said:

You'd THINK so, wouldn't you?

But no. They openly admit there are legit Form 4s out there which they no longer have copies to. That's why you HAVE to keep your own copies, and absolutely MUST even more especially locate and retain registration forms for any older Title II items in your family or whatever. There's a decent chance the yellowed, deteriorated, withered copy the current, perhaps elderly, owner has is the only copy anywhere. Lose it and that gun is now an illegal unregistered firearm with no recourse.

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Since they don't have all the copies (or a 'master list' I assume) , then how do they know they know that all the paperwork out there is legit?

"Since they don't have all the copies (or a 'master list' I assume) , then how do they know they know that all the paperwork out there is legit?"

"That's some catch, that Catch 22"

TCB

"That's some catch, that Catch 22"

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As Doc Daneeka said, "It's the best there is!"

I suppose if there is any reason to really scrutinize whether an old Form 4 is really legit, they'll put some counterfeit expert to looking at it. It wouldn't be the very simplest thing to fake, with a stamp and all, but it sure could be done.

It wouldn't be the very simplest thing to fake, with a stamp and all, but it sure could be done.

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Anything that's manufactured can be duplicated

I would not want to try to foist a fake tax stamp on the government. Would you?

There are probably secondary documents that can be sourced to verify the payment of taxes from any date, wouldn't you think?

There are probably secondary documents that can be sourced to verify the payment of taxes from any date, wouldn't you think?

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Well, first off: That's exactly what a Form 1 or Form 4 IS. A record of tax paid. It is a tax document.

So, to your question: MAYbe. In some of these cases we're talking about the Thompson or Sterling or whatever that grandpa registered in the 1950s and now that he's passed on and you're trying to work out the estate -- hopefully -- you've got an old, yellowed and faded Form 4 to go along with it.

If not, the executor of the estate can ask the ATF if they've got that gun still on file as registered. If they can't find it in their registry -- POOF, contraband. That's why they, and everyone else, harp about not losing YOUR form with the cancelled stamp!

Finding tax records that prove he paid $200 in 1950, well, again, not sure what other records of that transaction even COULD exist. And without the official record of that tax being paid -- which is the form itself -- I wouldn't imagine the ATF would fall all over themselves to accept your alternate proof.

I'd love to see a judges face when some guy gets charged with possession of an illegal machinegun, and the defense is asking the BATF witness/officer if it is possible that the gun WAS legally registered and BATF lost the records, and the agent answers, "Well, er, yes." Would that possibly be a case of "reasonable doubt"?

SharpsDressedMan said:

I'd love to see a judges face when some guy gets charged with possession of an illegal machinegun, and the defense is asking the BATF witness/officer if it is possible that the gun WAS legally registered and BATF lost the records, and the agent answers, "Well, er, yes." Would that possibly be a case of "reasonable doubt"?

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Or someone uses that scenario for a reason to challenge and seek to overturn the NFA laws on the basis that there is no accurate list of items registered under the NFA. Therefore the entire process and its effectiveness as a law is in doubt and must be scrapped (thus also making the Hughes amendment null and void).

Well...we can dream....can't we?

It wouldn't be the very simplest thing to fake, with a stamp and all, but it sure could be done.

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You can buy the stamps themselves online (apparently stamp collectors collect ATF stamps too). Ebay has a few right now ranging from $20-$75 each. The more difficult part would be matching the serial number written on the stamp (originally written to match the serial number of the registered weapon) to match the illegal weapon already in existence.

Automatic weapons in the US

I don't know how many OTHER folks have. But, I have exactly ONE. So far. DennyMac

Number of automatic weapons in U.S. ???

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I would say no one has a clue how many are in the US. You need to better define your question, between LE's, Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, private ownership of registered ones, federal agencies (ATF, Treasury, DOJ, Homeland Security, Marshall Service, Secret Service, DEA, ICE, CIA, NSA and all the other three letter agencies) as well as the mfgs like Colt, FNH, DD & Remington, I would guess somewhere around 2.5 to 3 million.

Jim

Enough that citizens in armed revolt could cause a head ache . We have millions of guns and our military hasn't won in Afghanistan . To those that say the 2nd a joke we could never win against out masters I say different.

Number of automatic weapons in U.S. ???

MICHAEL T said:

Enough that citizens in armed revolt could cause a head ache . We have millions of guns and our military hasn't won in Afghanistan . To those that say the 2nd a joke we could never win against out masters I say different.

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I think you are very wrong...

Comparing a war against an insurgency in foreign country where good diplomatic relations is the main goal is a whole different animal from a war against one's own citizenry. Our troops wouldn't have to please two governments...just their own.



That being said, I had an automatic rifle for a couple hours, just got rid of it actually. My AR Gold got a little temperamental with me today and neither sear would catch the hammer after a shot and it ran away from me after a trigger pull. Thankfully, I got it fixed. No need to worry NSA, BATFE, or any other government agency that may be monitoring this post

Ive seen inmates in prison hand draw copies of state forms, stamps, and seals that you can't tell are fake unless you have the legit form held up next to it.

Anyone with imagination and a computer can fake anything well enough to fool 99.99% of the people out there, including any law enforcement that doesn't specialize in spotting forgeries.