That's something I never would have suspected. Learned something new.
Number of automatic weapons in U.S.?
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That's something I never would have suspected. Learned something new.
AlexanderA
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Telekinesis wrote:
My tax stamps are endorsed (in ink) with the date the document was approved, and in some cases with the initials of the examiner. The serial number of the weapon doesn't appear on the stamp itself. Of course, these date from the 1970's - early 80's, and procedures may have changed since then.
My tax stamps are endorsed (in ink) with the date the document was approved, and in some cases with the initials of the examiner. The serial number of the weapon doesn't appear on the stamp itself. Of course, these date from the 1970's - early 80's, and procedures may have changed since then.
AlexanderA
Member
An important distinction to make is the number of transferables (the number that are theoretically available to the civilian market) versus the number that are actually on the market at any given time. This marketplace is illiquid, because of 8-9 month (or longer) transfer processing times as well as generally sky-high prices. Therefore a lot of owners are simply sitting on what they own, while potential buyers are staying away. This isn't a normal market with normal turnover. It's a very ossified market. It may come to the point where FA arms become available only when the owners die and the heirs don't want to keep them.
We won't have a normal market again until (a) the Hughes Amendment is repealed, and (b) the ATF establishes streamlined procedures and has adequate staffing to process transfers in a timely manner. Neither of these things is going to happen anytime soon (if ever). Sad to say, FA ownership is unreachable for more and more people. Maybe those (hopefully few) FA owners who are in favor of the Hughes Amendment because it artificially drives up the value of their holdings should think about the long-term implications. Where is the value of their holdings in an illiquid market with no buyers?
We won't have a normal market again until (a) the Hughes Amendment is repealed, and (b) the ATF establishes streamlined procedures and has adequate staffing to process transfers in a timely manner. Neither of these things is going to happen anytime soon (if ever). Sad to say, FA ownership is unreachable for more and more people. Maybe those (hopefully few) FA owners who are in favor of the Hughes Amendment because it artificially drives up the value of their holdings should think about the long-term implications. Where is the value of their holdings in an illiquid market with no buyers?
fallout mike
Member
Seems like I read something around 450, 000. Can't remember where. And if I "read" this while on fentanyl after my accident its entirely possible I imagined the whole thing.
It seems that all these shops that "buy machineguns!" are accumulating and consolidating a pretty sizeable chunk of the market in to a relatively small number of owners. We saw an estate sale posted on here awhile back (year or two) that had 100+ NFA guns listed, so sometimes the collections are disbursed once again. But there's big money (small money can't buy in), involved, and big money tends to horde things.
One of the local SOT's who had a pretty fair collection, a few years ago, had two big burly men in suits show up with suitcases of cash, bought him clean out. It's kind of a local legend at this point, but there is big money out there snapping up whatever becomes available. I do not discount at all that various groups are forming monopolies over the supply so that when they eventually liquidate they can ask whatever price they choose, and profit.
It also seems the SOT's who do rental ranges are using post-samples for their rentals (we have a couple here in IL that do this). So the "good" stuff is locked up, while the (more or less) easily replaceable stuff is put on the line to wear out.
As much as I hate to say it, it seems the only viable way for MANY folks to get in to that particular area of shooting sports today, is to become an FFL / SOT, get friendly with the local LEO's, and do the demo letter route to build an inventory up.
It shouldn't BE that way. You shouldn't have a class of arms restricted for A) the ultra-wealthy or B) the ones skirting the laws by making use of administrative "loopholes".
But that's where we are today.
One of the local SOT's who had a pretty fair collection, a few years ago, had two big burly men in suits show up with suitcases of cash, bought him clean out. It's kind of a local legend at this point, but there is big money out there snapping up whatever becomes available. I do not discount at all that various groups are forming monopolies over the supply so that when they eventually liquidate they can ask whatever price they choose, and profit.
It also seems the SOT's who do rental ranges are using post-samples for their rentals (we have a couple here in IL that do this). So the "good" stuff is locked up, while the (more or less) easily replaceable stuff is put on the line to wear out.
As much as I hate to say it, it seems the only viable way for MANY folks to get in to that particular area of shooting sports today, is to become an FFL / SOT, get friendly with the local LEO's, and do the demo letter route to build an inventory up.
It shouldn't BE that way. You shouldn't have a class of arms restricted for A) the ultra-wealthy or B) the ones skirting the laws by making use of administrative "loopholes".
But that's where we are today.
Telekinesis
Member
I took a closer look at mine and it looks like I have the SN and the examiner's initials hand written on the stamp, and the date of approval stamped in the middle of the NFA stamp. All of mine were approved within the last 2 years, so the ATF's practices could have easily changed since your forms were approved.
I agree with you, but I don't think SOTs are taking advantage of loopholes. While it is certainly possible that there are some SOTs who are only maintaining their status to play with machine guns, the VAST majority of them actually do hold their SOTs for business purposes.
On a separate note, I'm starting to wonder how following the law became a loophole... Not specifically to your comment, Trent, but it seems to be a common occurrence today that if someone is following the law but still doing something you don't like, it becomes a "loophole" (gun show loophole, NFA trust loophole, tax loophole, etc.)
AlexanderA
Member
A "loophole" is an unintended consequence of the law as originally written. For example, the $200 transfer tax specified in the original NFA of '34 was intended to be all but prohibitive, since that was a serious amount of money then and represented about a 100% tax on the going price of a Thompson. The "loophole," in this case, was that the $200 tax was not adjusted for inflation. Now, the $200 tax is just a nuisance amount, compared to the going price of the guns. The function of the tax, that is, to quell the market, is now being fulfilled by bureaucratic foot-dragging on transfers. I'll predict that creative legal thinkers will come up with ways to get around even that, such as selling interests in the trusts, corporations, or LLC's holding the weapons, so that no technical "transfer" ever takes place. But if such subterfuges take hold, you can bet there'll be pushback on the legislative side.
gamestalker
member
I think you can go to the FBI web site and they will have some pretty accurate numbers. However, the count won't be up to the minuet but rather what was compiled as of the last statistical count, which will probably be as of 2010 or 2011. ATF might have a web site with that information also? Now you got me wondering, so I guess I'll have to do some research.
GS
GS
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Why would the FBI have any idea?
Here are NFA Stamps SOLD (non active listings) on E-Bay
The lowest went for $21 and the highest went for $50
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=NFA+stamp&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc
The lowest went for $21 and the highest went for $50
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=NFA+stamp&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc
AlexanderA
Member
I would advise against making up your own Form 4 using a second-hand tax stamp obtained on ebay. These are serious crimes we're talking about here.
medalguy
Member
That is exactly what I was referring to in my earlier post. Don't even THINK of going there. I do believe if someone sent ATF a faked transfer form for Uncle Joe dated back in 1950 claiming it's legitimate would have a lot of questions to answer. I would believe there's some kind of log of stamps used and the dates. At any rate there should be documents showing monies received by the government that could be checked, especially if you claimed a specific date for approval of a form.
By the way, the Form 4 transfers I have all show the examiner's initials and serial number of the weapons.
By the way, the Form 4 transfers I have all show the examiner's initials and serial number of the weapons.
barnbwt
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"These are serious crimes we're talking about here."
Yeah, I can think of funner ways to get 10-20 in the federal pen
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"As much as I hate to say it, it seems the only viable way for MANY folks to get in to that particular area of shooting sports today, is to become an FFL / SOT, get friendly with the local LEO's, and do the demo letter route to build an inventory up.
It shouldn't BE that way. You shouldn't have a class of arms restricted for A) the ultra-wealthy or B) the ones skirting the laws by making use of administrative "loopholes".
But that's where we are today"
I imagine the entire ATF Tech Branch would probably agree with you there. But that is the logical progression of the '34 NFA, whose entire purpose was to gradually "dry up the supply" of machineguns. We all knew they would eventually dwindle in number so as to become priceless museum pieces, it was just a matter of time. It only took what, one generation since the registry closed for them to be virtually unobtainable --isn't that what we've always said about ban grand-fathering?
Granted, I did see a registered BM59 go for under 7K recently --not a bad deal for a F/A 308. It's not like ammo costs wouldn't trump that in short order, either
The sucky thing is that once MG's are owned solely by tycoons, they will defend the exclusivity of those guns adamantly, due to the high premium they now command solely due to gun restrictions. I wouldn't be surprised if Bloomberg owns a number of machine guns, simply due to the beneficial value repercussions of his political activities
TCB
Yeah, I can think of funner ways to get 10-20 in the federal pen
."As much as I hate to say it, it seems the only viable way for MANY folks to get in to that particular area of shooting sports today, is to become an FFL / SOT, get friendly with the local LEO's, and do the demo letter route to build an inventory up.
It shouldn't BE that way. You shouldn't have a class of arms restricted for A) the ultra-wealthy or B) the ones skirting the laws by making use of administrative "loopholes".
But that's where we are today"
I imagine the entire ATF Tech Branch would probably agree with you there. But that is the logical progression of the '34 NFA, whose entire purpose was to gradually "dry up the supply" of machineguns. We all knew they would eventually dwindle in number so as to become priceless museum pieces, it was just a matter of time. It only took what, one generation since the registry closed for them to be virtually unobtainable --isn't that what we've always said about ban grand-fathering?
Granted, I did see a registered BM59 go for under 7K recently --not a bad deal for a F/A 308
. It's not like ammo costs wouldn't trump that in short order, either The sucky thing is that once MG's are owned solely by tycoons, they will defend the exclusivity of those guns adamantly, due to the high premium they now command solely due to gun restrictions. I wouldn't be surprised if Bloomberg owns a number of machine guns, simply due to the beneficial value repercussions of his political activities
TCB
AlexanderA
Member
As I wrote in an earlier post, the "value" enjoyed by these "tycoons" will be theoretical only, if there's no liquid market for the items. Actually, if you took a survey, the vast majority of MG owners would favor an easing of restrictions, simply because they would like to add more to their stash. And I would suspect that many MG owners are old geezers like me, who instead of being rich, were lucky enough to have obtained their items when they were affordable, back before the 1986 cutoff. Under current conditions, such people aren't selling -- their items will come on the market only when they die.
Bubbles
Member
Except that's not how ATF rolls.
http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/Violating_Due_Process20Aug2008.pdf
The video and is at: http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/rollcall_highlights.mp4 if you'd care to watch for yourself.
while i am certainly not advocating any crimes, my guess is the fake stamp would be pretty easy to get away with. after all, you don't need to fake out the ATF. you only need to fake out local LEO etc, most of whom probably don't even know that machine guns are legal for civilians at all, much less understand the NFA processes.
the scary part is the risk to legit buyers of paying $10k+ and receiving a bogus gun and stamp
the scary part is the risk to legit buyers of paying $10k+ and receiving a bogus gun and stamp
Outlaw Man
Member
In the hands of lawful civilians? Not nearly enough.
General Geoff
Member
I suspect that if more counterfeiters knew about the NFA, we'd be seeing a lot more "pre-86" registered machine guns.
It reminds me of a story I read awhile back about so-called super-counterfeit $20 and $100 bills, that were printed with the same ink and same presses as the real bills. At a certain point, counterfeit objects become completely indistinguishable from the genuine article, and literally nothing except perhaps secret knowledge from individuals unknown could ever tell the difference or verify one way or the other.
xfyrfiter
Member
And on another slant. Is that FA M-16 that Uncle Ted was shooting on Pigman last night, a pre 86 receiver, or did he buy a new one somewhere?
Ingsoc75
Member
Anybody know how often the forms to register an NFA have changed over the years? Or have they been using the same form since 1934?
People have tried scams with full auto before, it isn't unheard of. One guy got busted earlier this year or last year (can't remember, thread was on THR about it), for cutting the serial # off of old MAC-10 receivers, and welding to new guns (MG-42, etc). Filed new paperwork, caliber conversions, etc.
ATF didn't look too kindly on that and he was prosecuted. No idea how it turned out.
Now, a guy in the backwoods cranking out AK's and fake tax stamps, that'd be a heck of a racket. $200 in parts kits, $25,000 profit.
I could see where it'd be tempting for career criminals. I think that surpasses the risk vs. reward deal.
It wouldn't take long for the ATF to catch on though - the transfer forms have to go through them at some point, and they will not be able to match them up in to the registry. I'm pretty sure they'd investigate all of those - to correct their registry, if nothing else.
The enforcement arm of the BATFE has lots of mean men and guns, I wouldn't advise any potential forgers to risk it. I don't think "polite" would factor in, in the manner they shut down a tax stamp forgery ring.
As much as it irks me that there is a registry(can't own FA here, in IL, in any form unless you go SOT/FFL route), the fact that one exists means we need to abide by it until the winds blow far enough in our direction to get it changed/reopened.
E.g. that news article about raising the tax stamp from $200 to 500 or whatever? The ammo tax/gun tax thing?
Hell, if that's what it takes to re-open the registry, I'm fine with a $500 transfer. (The ammo tax thing is bogus, shouldn't be allowed).
So, I think, would a lot of us be with it.
Until it's challenged successfully in court (a challenge successfully made it through Federal district 7 once but never went on to Supreme court), it's the law of the land...
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Wasn't even just one guy, but rather a bit of a "ring" operating out of the southwest. A local dealer I know got in serious trouble for being tied up in it. I think he was able to plea out to some lesser charge, but very serious bad ju-ju all 'round.
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