Pre-98 Mausers and case rupture safety?

Handsome rifles, Boxhead, but the first one shown is a large ring action.

I have been shooting an 1897 dated "OVS" Mauser which I believe is an 1895 pattern. I started shooting this rifle in 1984, it had been rebarreled in 308 Win.

I shot literally thousands of factory rounds through it before a few years ago waking up to the fact that it might be a good idea to back off. These days I am shooting 150 grain bullets through it about 2600fps from a 24 inch barrel.

The action is 116 years old. It makes sense to take it easy.

I have a FR8 and I shoot commercial 308 and milsurp 762 through it. Never seen any problems yet. I als have a yugo 48a. Plenty of crap 8mm shot through that as well. Lastly I have a 93 Turk action re heat treated by the Turks in 38 or so. They shot plenty of 8mm through it and I have shot 308 in it. Still have a few of those actions to be built into rifles.

From what I am seeing of the catastrophic failure pictures it appears there was a case head failure and not a action failure.

I see no indication of lug shear and the barrel did not rupture.

the below pic is a 30.06 round that was loaded by a Brit firm for the Greek Army (1950s)and it was fired in a Garand and similar happened to the Garand. Note there is no high pressure signs on the primer of this case. In the case failure investigation description this would be a M failure and I would guess a soft case head from the case going through the stress relieving upside down.

"Handsome rifles, Boxhead, but the first one shown is a large ring action."

No it is not. It is a Swede with G33/40 cuts all performed by Jim Wisner. Trust me.

Wow, so he cuts down the sidewalls to make it look like a large ring.
Amazing.

From what I am seeing of the catastrophic failure pictures it appears there was a case head failure and not a action failure.

I see no indication of lug shear and the barrel did not rupture.

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Ok, maybe it was simply a case head failure. I have seen pictures of case head failures in modern actions, the pictures below, the shooter claimed SR4759 powder bridged in the drop tube and he thusly had an overcharge:







I think we can all agree the M70 gas handling is in the same class as a M96, yet the bridge is still intact. Whether it was due to luck, lesser charge, I don’t know, but the better steels used in modern firearms also is a valid reason why the receiver stayed intact.

I have a bud that stuck a 270 Win in the 300 Win Mag M70, blew the scope and stock up, yet the action was usable. He still has brass particles in his face.

As for these old actions, here are comments about pressures, steels, from various people :

Rifle Magazine Issue 159 May 1995 Dear Editor pg 10

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/ri159partial.pdf

Ludwig Olsen

Mauser 98 actions produced by Mauser and DWM were proofed with two loads that produced approximately 1000 atmosphere greater pressure than normal factory rounds. That procedure was in accordance with the 1891 German proof law. Proof pressure for the Mauser 98 in 7 X57 was 4,050 atmospheres (57, 591 psi). Pressure of the normal 7 X 57 factory load with 11.2 gram bullet was given in Mauser’s 1908 patent boot as 3,050 atmosphere, or 43, 371 pounds.

While many Mausers in the 1908 Brazilian category will likely endure pressures considerably in excess of the 4,050 atmospheres proof loads, there might be some setback of the receiver locking shoulder with such high pressures.

Rifle & Carbine 98: M98 Firearms of the German Army from 1898 to 1918 Dieter Storz

Inside Dieter’s book are the material specifications for the M98 Mauser. The material looks to be a manganese steel alloy, with copper added for easy machining. I assume the material is in the normalized state, but the property requirements were Ultimate 78.2 Ksi, Yield 36.9 KSI, elongation 15%.

Carbon LT 0.40%
Manganese LT 0.90%
Copper LT 0.18%
Silicon LT 0.30%
Phosphorous LT 0.04%
Sulphur LT 0.06%

Closest I can find is 1038 Carbon steel,

Carbon 0.35-0.42%
Manganese 0.60-0.90

Typical uses include machine, plow, and carriage bolts, tie wire, cylinder head studs, and machined parts, U-bolts, concrete reinforcing rods, forgings, and non-critical springs. Could not find a heat treated 1038 steel.

The German proof was 2 round proof at 4,000 atm gas pressure. 1 atm = 14.6 psi, 4000 atm = 58, 784 psia. People shooting 60,000 psia cartridges ought to know that they are shooting proof loads in these older actions.

This was written by Phil Sharpe in 1937 and are his comments on vintage rifles:

There has been a great deal of improvement in steels, whether they be ordinary soft steels or various forms of nickel steel. No attempt with be made here to describe steels, as the subject would require and entire book. Thirty years ago, very little was known about heat treatment..

If you had a Winchester Model 1892 manufactured in 1905 and an identical model manufactured in 1935, assuming the original gun to be in perfect condition inside and out, you might place them side by side and notice absolutely no difference at firs glance. Careful study, however, will reveal that the later gun is manufactured better, with a minimum of tolerance, slap, looseness or whatever you may choose to call it. That, however, is the minor part of the of the whole thing. There will be little laboratory resemblance between the material of which the two gun are manufactured. Changes and improvements are being made constantly, and where changes in the quality of steel or the strengthening of certain parts through heat treatment are made, the factory rarely, if ever, makes any announcement. If these same Model 92 rifles were fired with a Magnum .38/40 load, it is quite possible that the earlier gun might go to pieces, while the later one would be perfectly safe. These facts must always be considered in handloading.

Complete Guide to Handloading by Philip B Sharpe. First Edition 1937, Chapter XXX, Magnum Handgun and Rifle Possibilities. Mr Sharpe was born in 1903, died 1961.



http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?181256-Channeling-P-O-Mauser-blow-up-project

Variation in M96 Swede Actions

Quite a few years ago another fellow and I bought 60 of those Sweedes when they could still be had quite cheap. We decided we were going to do a quick "sporterising" on them and make a fortune. Took the whole pile and bent the bolts, drilled and tapped, cut down stocks, installed Weaver mounts, the whole banana.

Learned a lot on that one, 60 bolts to low forge and polish is one heck of a lot of work for one, not all Sweedes are heat treated the same for another.
Noticed a lot of variation when we started to drill and tap. Some seemed like butter, some hard as glass. Started to put them on the Rockwell machine and it proved out so. Some receivers would not hardly register, some were as high as 42. Bolts also were all over the place.

It didn't seem to make any difference as to year of manufacture, they just varied. Most seemed to follow the standard Mauser heat treat with a case hardening but a few came along that seemed to be hard all through.
Interesting project. I think in the long run if we would have stopped to figure our time we lost our butts. Made no difference, in our minds eye we made one heck of a killing.

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http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/gunsmithing/input-gun-project-259589/

I have a Swedish 96 action almost blown in half.

Bolt remained locked and in position, ~ 1 sq in of right sidewall of receiver has been blown completely off, Right rail fractured right in front of rear bridge. Stock was broken in 2.

No overpressure load.. Factory..

Case failed at primer pocket.. (probably a seam in case blank)

Expanding gas has nowhere to go.. The thin wall of early Mauser actions where locking lugs must rotate, is the weak point. A couple gas relief holes (like on modern bolt rifles) Might have saved action...

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As much as there is much romance associated with these older actions, they have safety issues which should not be glossed over.

Slamfire, any pics of the case from the Mod 70?

I see lots of pics of blown rifles but for some reason very few save the case. I will bet the primer pocket on the case from this one would allow a Browning 50 primer to be set in it.

With the new electronic measurement (piezo) one would think work has been done to determine the actual pressures a properly made brass case sees when it lets go like this. But then again no one wants to take out a Universal Receiver I guess.

All I ever read indicated case heads flow readily about 115,000 lbs and over.

Yes it is and since he has not done a build for many years a really slick piece of history. I have great correspondence on this particular rifle and all is good stuff.

Slamfire, any pics of the case from the Mod 70?

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Sorry, the OP never posted any case pictures.


I have seen a number of blow up cases that were blown through the case head similar to the picture you posted. Some of the pictures were of steel cased Russian ammunition.

These pictures are mine, this case ruptured in a high power match in an AR15. In fact a highly improbable event happened at the 300 RF line. I was in the pitts at the time but we had two alibi targets and lots of chatter on the radio. When the relays change, and I am out on the line there is an argument going on. There were two new shooters who had been leant AR15’s by Gentleman A and given ammunition by Gentleman B. During the same RF relay, these shooters both had similar case ruptures. Magazines were blown out, no one was hurt, the rifles were still functional and the two shooters completed an alibi relay. The argument on the line, between A &B, was whether Mr A’s rifles were defective or Mr B’s ammunition was improperly loaded.

I picked up one case, the other had been tossed away in disgust somewhere well ahead of the firing line. I found from Mr B that he had bought these cases from Scharch.



After the match, when competitors are discussing great issues, one shooter I know said he had purchased 223 brass from Scharch and had a lot of cases that failed in the same way. So evidentially Scharch had a bunch of brass that had been weakened in the case head. What would do this, I think exposure to chemicals, maybe deteriorating powder.

I guess the question I have is, “why would a case break through its strongest point unless the brass was previously embrittled? “

To me, an example of 1950’s ammunition that had old powder outgassing NOx is a candidate for brass embrittlement.

silicosys4 said:

I have an M96 Carl Gustav Mauser that was made in 1902. It was restocked by Kimber, and rebarreled as a ".308 winchester", then sold commercially.
It is a nice gun, but I have the same feelings as you do about shooting factory loads through it. IMO, it should have never been converted to a higher pressure round than the action was originally designed for.
I only shoot light reloads through it....and can't find any scope bases for it, so even then, vary rarely.

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For the Kimber rifles, you need to find a set of Warne scope bases. The Kimber's were set-up for use of these bases.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/32...ing-unaltered-with-stripper-clip-bridge-gloss

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/19...ng-altered-stripper-clip-bridge-removed-matte

"Wow, so he cuts down the sidewalls to make it look like a large ring.
Amazing."

Yep and he makes the one piece bottom metal, quarter rib and three position safety to work on the cock on opening conversion too. Or at least he used to as he no longer 'smiths. He was/is and artist with both metal and wood.

my .02 cents

I have two 1893 Spanish Oviedo Mausers with mfg dates of 1931 & 1932.
the 1931 is a 1916 pattern Carbine with the gas cuts in the bolt & reciever, and the 1932 is a long rifle with no relief cut (thumb cut) in the sidewall for loading stripper clips, or no gas holes in the bolt or reciever.
I do reload and keep pressures down to the level these guns were mfg'd for.
It makes no sense to me to "Hot Rod" these actions as they were not built for it.
If I want a "Hot" 7x57 Mauser I'll buy a modern Winchester 70, Ruger 77, or a Rem 700; which can be had on the used market for a pittance, compared to the loss of an eye, or worse.
I already own a tack driving 280 Rem, so I leave the Mausers where they were intendid to be and enjoy them for what they are.

I had this one rupture recently in a new Zastava commercial Mauser type action in 30-06. It was not an overload but a WW2 vintage case which must have corroded obviously. 60g of H4831 with a 180g Interlock.



Action was filled with grit and residue but was otherwise unaffected.

I threw the rest of that brass out which was a shame, but the experience was sufficiently unpleasant to never want to go through it again.

"Top notch steel" in any rifle vintage 1895-1900 is not the same as "top notch steel" today. Modern steel is simply better in every way.

But, that being said, even today's forged steel can't stand up to the high pressure gas released if a case head fails, and the case is still the weakest point in the system. That is why an action like the Remington 700 which, for practical purposes, prevents case failure, is more resistant to massive failure than any of the older guns. It is not just the steel itself, but how it is used.

Jim

The "top notch" was in reference to the OP comparing previous actions to the M98. Clearly today's should be better though there are many 98's out there in all manner of chambering's suffering no ill effects and few will take care of the shooter better should a rupture occur.

State of the art 1911:





What I consider to be the basic problem is that too many people believe without critically examining the puff pieces gun writers write to sell old surplus rifles. These guys are always printing stupid stuff as “old world craftsmanship”, “state of the art”, but they are ignorantly repeating what the importer tells them to write. I think the most important attribute of a gunwriter is a flexible large colon, making it easy for the corporate sponsor to reach up and flap its jaws. Sure, vacuum tubes were state of the art to the 60’s, but so what, old radios, plain carbon steels, are no longer state of the art and have not been so for decades.

threw the rest of that brass out which was a shame, but the experience was sufficiently unpleasant to never want to go through it again

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What you did was prudent. Old gunpowder outgasses NOx, which attacks brass, causing embrittlement. Old surplus ammunition which has been sitting around for decades has unknown issues, and even if the stuff fires fine first time, that does not mean the brass was not weakened by exposure to nitric acid gas coming out of the gunpowder. The fact that you had case head splits tells me that lot of brass was not to be trusted.

Small ring Mauser failure

I understand caution. I manufacture parts that substantially outperform the OEM parts they replace in the most fragile of gun designs, the revolver.

I like small ring Mausers, but the wives' tales I put up with when folks who ought to know better give me grief are annoying. As close as anyone's gotten to sorting this out is a fellow named COPPERLAKE on Castboolits in this threadhttp://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?181256-Channeling-P-O-Mauser-blow-up-project. It's not about scary pictures and rumor. And it's not a sound bite, so unless you want to know about small rings, stay away from it.

Wisent
Classicballistx

I had a punctured primer in a handload w/in book limits and had a spontaneous disassembly of the bolt of sorts. I got some gas in the face as the firing pin backed out about 1 1/2 inches scary close to my face. It bent the firing pin some, but otherwise the rifle seems OK. I replaced the firing pin and continue to use the rifle w/o issues. I think I had a defectively soft primer.

Post #35: "There were two new shooters who had been leant AR15’s by Gentleman A and given ammunition by Gentleman B. During the same RF relay, these shooters both had similar case ruptures."

Hey, I was there that day; waiting for the am XTC shooters to wrap up before the pm LR match. I figured it had to be the ammo, the chance of two rifles failing the same way the same day is minuscule.

I recently purchased A chilean 1895 mauser . I think its the cavalry model (18" bbl ). The only ammo I could find was federal 7mm mauser 140 gr. speer hot-cor sp. Its rated on the boxat 2660fps at the muzzle. Is that too hot for that old rifle ? Can any one suggest a factory brand / load that is lighter ? I'm just target / plinking with it. Thanks spence

I like small ring Mausers, but the wives' tales I put up with when folks who ought to know better give me grief are annoying. As close as anyone's gotten to sorting this out is a fellow named COPPERLAKE on Castboolits in this threadhttp://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...low-up-project. It's not about scary pictures and rumor. And it's not a sound bite, so unless you want to know about small rings, stay away from it.

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That CastBullets thread is excellent, confirms what we have heard of on Spanish Mausers, and surprisingly, the Carcano did very well.

In so far as gas handling, the pre 98 actions were not so good.

I don’t know if this post is a criticism, which wives tales I am perpetuating?

While contemplating the possibilities of ruptured cases in these older pre98 mausers, What does anyone think or question the wisdom of Carl Gustav, Norma, and of other Scan gun makers to use some of these weaker(tongue in cheek) basic 96 actions for the CG63 in the higher pressure 7.62NATO round starting back in about 1963.
The link for copperlake's thread at cast bullets is very good indeed. The read is long but worth it all. It has a number of pearls and it is still ongoing. I bookmarked it. Thanx for the link and headsup to classicballistx.
I'll hold all the pre 98 in a better light now.
Mauser improved the gas venting in the 98 because it needed it. Plenty of rifle types designed after the much hailed 98 have not incorporated his improved gas handling systems.
But if you want that turk 98 with the 21 inch swede tube to push way up there in the 264Mag area, you'll probably be best served with a 98 action and shooting glasses.
Spence, your ammo will be fine.
BestAll

Its your EYES DUMMY!!!

I can't comment on the specific rifle, but as someone that just had something dug out of my eye last week I do have a new feel for just how much your eyes mean to ME.

Back story:
I am restoring a 1963 VW Beetle....pan off entire 9 yards. I had on safety glasses...shields on the sides and across my fore head. Two pair of gloves on, one latex, one Kevlar, ears and a hat. Grinding down welds on an inner fender. I figured I was safe....then I felt it....I swear I felt it hit my cheek then bounce into my left eye....the pain was just insane. Now I live with pain every day due to some medical issues but this was just amazing. This happened to me on a Saturday.

Come Monday....(hay I am a man...naturally I am going to wait at least one day) my eye is still crusted over, watering like crazy and all the Bourbon is not helping. Off to the eye Dr. I go with the wife driving....I really can't see now...even out of the good eye...everything is fuzzy.

Yup a small bit of metal in my eye...he dug....yup DUG it out with a scraper....seems if you leave it in there too long the eye will try to cover over it.....it was about the size of a grain of pepper...then came the fun part....oh yea best not started yet....you see if you get metal in your eye it will start to rust right away....so we had to get the rust out of there.....more scraping on my eye ball.

All in all I am ok...there is a little fuzzy spot at one point in my vision that might go away....I was lucky.

Don't cheap out on eye protection (I now use goggles) you only have one pair of eyes....and trust me even though god gave you two so you have an extra...you really do want to keep them both working.

thanks fgpgt72 for posting. I use saftey glasses, but before I shoot again I'M GOING TO BUY A PAIR OF GOGGLES !!