Equipment to commercially produce .22lr ammuntion

Honestly, you aren't going to get useful info from a public internet forum.

Click to expand...

This is probably the best response.

Your business plan might be sound. You may have the capital available to do this. However, just because the people here SHOOT a lot of rimfire ammo doesn't mean we know squat about making it.

Almost any info you get here will be guesses - some might be close to the mark - some might have no clue.

Good luck with this project. The biggest problem I see is not technology, it's politics. The technology has existed for decades, and all it takes is money to buy equipment aPolitics created the current shortage, and THIS panic is showing signs of easing up. By the time you could get in the game, it will be pretty much over. However, if the political factors cause another panic - or even revive this one - then it makes sense to have the capacity to take advantage of the situation. If Hillary wins 2016, I would expect prices to spike - and it to also become harder to enter the business.

It's a gamble - and a long-term gamble, at that.

I see an awful lot of negative responses here. This is America where people can and do succeed. I have a great uncle that owned a factory for many years. He started it up himself and kept it running for decades. It became outdated eventually but not before he made a mint. He made conveyer belt systems. It's not ammo but it's a pretty complicated procedure. He also produced windows for a while. And people do have money to invest. For some that 3 million price tag wouldn't scare them a bit. I know a guy who owns an arena. He essentially bought it with pocket change for him. My brother in law could easily invest 3 million. And I have a friend that has far more money than my BIL. He made his money hooking up businesses to a music service. He started from scratch and probably has made $50 million. He owns half a small town now or at least half the business district. That was just a hobby of his.

I don't know a thing about making ammo. But I do know that people can succeed in this country. Some already have. My BIL is always looking for new ways to make money. He was about to set me up in a business a while back but my health bombed on me. I worked for him and saved him a bunch of money and he was going to set me up to do the same thing for his friends in other businesses. He had it all set up but I just couldn't do it. It was a computer consulting business he was going to set me up in BTW. He knew we could both make money with his contacts and my knowledge of computers at the time.

Again, this is America. People do make it here. It may not pan out. Like the OP said most business ideas don't. But it might work.

"I have a good friend who maintains the production equipment at Federal in Anoka MN.

They are currently producing about 42 million rounds of 22lr per week."

Holy, moly, where the heck is it all going?

I didn't buy any 22 ammo last year because I stocked up in previous years when it was available and cheap. I have enough to last me awhile longer but eventually however I want to start shooting more. I will need to replenish in about 5 years so I hope the shortage is over by then.

Personally, if I was looking to get into the 22 ammo biz, I would look at South America or Russia or other former com-block countries and see what they are doing.

the investment is going to be huge. but i do not think that is going to be the real problem. the real problem is that the "shortage" which is not a shortage at all. is going to be temporary. not a short term temporary, but temporary just the same. my guess is that the demand will remain STUPID high until after the current politicians have been thrown out of D.C. (which should have been January 21 2009) then, about a year to catch up. then, there is going to be a several year low demand cycle. until all that excess ammunition gets shot up. during that time, the demand for new production is going to be very low. unless the manufacturers can "reinvent" the 22 into something it is not now. but with all the 22lr semi automatics out there, they would have to be very careful about what they do in that department. part of your equation will need to be how much money your boss could recoup during the next 4 years or so. if he could make money by the end of year 2, he might be ok. but if it takes longer than that, i am afraid it would be a bad business decision.

I'm with Cee Zee. If the man wants to investigate a business plan's viability, he most certainly should. Every successful businessman has at some point had to endure nay-sayers.

I say, go for it. I'd gladly shoot someone else's rimfire ammo for a change. Just as happened in the beer industry, perhaps smaller players might cause the bigger guys to take notice and improve their products, too.

my guess is that the demand will remain STUPID high until after the current politicians have been thrown out of D.C. (which should have been January 21 2009) then, about a year to catch up

Click to expand...

The thing is the gun grabbers aren't going away. We have already seen 2 cycles of shortages. How many more are coming? I don't know. But smart people have ways of making right decisions. And very often they work out.

It's often said that a problem is really an opportunity. Those current bullet makers got started somehow. It can be done again I suppose. I don't know. But I know there are reasons to think about it.

Ammunition making: An insider's story
by George E Frost (Author)

I cannot lay my hands on this book at the moment, but I remember this is by a Remington engineer. Part of the book is details how he was sent to Mexico to start up a 22 manufacturing site. This is interesting reading and pertains to this topic.

Another way to get into some businesses is to Franchise. If one had the money to partner with Norma of Sweden or S&B of Czech Republic, to bring a specific product manufacturing to America??

Both the Germans & Japanese have auto manufacturing plants here in America so IT CAN BE DONE.

I'd take a look at setting up a centerfire remanufacturing operation if there isn't already one in your region. You can tailor your output to demand much more easily, e.g, high-volume FMJ range ammo or smaller volume match ammo and specialty loads.

As far as 22LR goes, I'd start an estate liquidation service for hazmat materials and other "dangerous items" that specializes in firearms and ammo. It is only a matter of time before we start seeing "horder widows" with garages and spare bedrooms stuffed full of 22LR guns and ammo that needs to be liquidated.

I read Glenn Newick's book on rimfire accuracy where he detailed the Eley plant in the UK. Climate-controlled booths around every machine, 300 variables that affect accuracy that must be maintained correctly for every round (unless you want to produce Remington Golden bullets) to make good ammo.

Consider that for the volumes of 17hmr shot around the entire world, there is only 1 manufacturing line (CCI's) as far as I know. Eley has 7 machines in the UK for Match and Tenex, at least 1 more in Mexico for Eley Sport and priming Aguilia and some Remington. CCI has a 22lr line. Winchester has one. Not sure if Remington farms their poor-quality ammo out or not... Federal has a line. RWS and Wolf and SK all share a line AFAIK.

Anyway, keep us updated on your business case. I have a feeling you need to run serious volume or produce a product that is better than Lapua and Eley at the high end.

Just a thought for those pointing out the difficulty of competing with the established manufacturers.

A new company wouldn't have to compete with an established firm, they could be a paid contractor by an established firm. If a new producer can prove they can make a product to the required quality standards at an attractive price the big boys won't have to worry about that pesky hiring of new employees or building of a new plant. When demand is high they just negotiate a contract and supply the fancy "R" or "C" to stamp into the head of the brass and when the demand drops they don't buy any more and let the other company worry about how to pay for the expensive equipment.

I got my first 380 ACP pistol at the tail end of the previous ammo shortage and a bunch of the "Winchester" ammo I bought said "Made in the Czech Republic" in small print on the box. It was almost certainly made by S&B under contract. It had the same size box and the same plastic tray as S&B I also purchased at that time. Think about all the private label food in your grocery store. My local store sells "Market Basket" brand ketchup, mustard, etc.. I'm sure that the same factory does, or is willing to try to, supply to Albertsons or Winn-Dixie or whatever other chain wants a private label brand.

It will be interesting to see how this turns out.

Dan

Speaking from the tooling aspect as a former Tool and Die Maker, you would buy the sheet brass in rolls, you would need a high speed press to draw and upset the ends of the blanks for the primer, then you would need the machine to inject the priming material and spin the casing so the primer is evenly distributed, then a machine to add the powder charge and seat the bullet. Unless you were really going very high production I would probably recommend buying the bullets to start rather than rolling your own given the EPA hysteria over lead. It can be done and there are probably presses that were designed for other uses that could be adapted. I did a lot of work with drawing steel to depths in multiples of diameter and brass should be easier to work than mild steel. Look at your average aluminum can, they are stamped out at an amazing rate from flat sheet aluminum and it is harder to draw than brass.

Best of luck to you, Sir. I like the idea of "micro-brew" style .22LR production. or any ammo for that matter.

problem is, there will be some duds out there, just like microbrews. but unlike microbrews, duds in ammunition can have some significant consequences.

when some dodo decides to make a watermelon flavored IPA, the result is a few bitter beer faces, but when a small manufacturer messes up on ammo, things go boom in a bad way.

i would imagine the big boys carry some significant liability insurance and that would have to be a factor as well. either way, i'd be interested to see how it goes.

Bad beer can give you food poisoning, fwiw. All business has risk.

TCB

Well, apparently Federal has pumped out close to 3 billion rounds of .22 in the last year. I'd say the market is ripe for a start up. always going to be able to sell .22. I've had the same idea myself on a really small scale. Like 1000 rds a day. I cant afford the equipment or I would be marketing it here. Maybe with THR advertising on the box or something.

Holy, moly, where the heck is it all going?

Click to expand...

42 million rounds a week only sounds like a lot. Given 10 500 round bricks in a case, that's only 8,400 cases. Assuming Walmart gets only one case for each store a week, that'll eat up about half of that, leaving 4,400 or so cases for all the other ammo retailers.

If I was going to enter the rimfire manufacturing industry, I would start with a modest investment in R&D... If I'm going to tool-up in a mature industry, I'm going to build a better mouse-trap...

My rimfire ammunition will have to be innovative in some way... If I could capture a solid U.S. Patent, investment money would be easier to obtain...

Starting from scratch is always the most difficult. Even the big companies like to buy smaller companies instead of reinventing a product.

Partnering with an established firm already in the field – like Starline brass, Atlanta Arms or others and giving them the resources to expand to a new product – like 22, is far more likely to succeed.

Starting from scratch is always the most difficult. Even the big companies like to buy smaller companies instead of reinventing a product.

Partnering with an established firm already in the field – like Starline brass, Atlanta Arms or others and giving them the resources to expand to a new product – like 22, is far more likely to succeed.

Click to expand...

I certainly agree with this. longspurr - which lake? ( I miss living in WI...)

22 lr ammo has been made for more than 125 years (Actually started by Stevens Arms in 1887) surely there is some obsolete equipment laying around that could be used to make ammo. Surely there are machines in foreign countries that are sitting idol waiting around for something to do. Surely the Chinese would be happy to make cheap 22 ammo so they can pay slave wages.

Surely someone is trying to develop and alternative to .22 ammo that doesn't need the sophisticated manufacturing processes (caseless ammo perhaps)

I have a dumb question. Why is 22 ammo so cheap? It seems that the equipment and process is somewhat more complicated than CF ammo. Is it because each round uses less raw materials and once the equipment and process is up then they can produce more cheaper?

Yes, certainly that. And probably something to do with the fact that demand has always and forever (until now?) been pretty stable. Lots of OOooold machines churning along year after year keeping the supply chains fed, insulated from the ups and downs of any but the gentlest supply/demand wobbles. Then ... uh oh!

Bad beer can give you food poisoning, fwiw. All business has risk.

Click to expand...

Your point is stands in general, but beer can't give anyone food poisoning. When is goes "bad" accidentally it tastes bad and people say "yuck." When it goes "bad" in a controlled environment on purpose (same bacteria), people pay extra for these barrel-ages sour beers.

Nothing harmful to humans can live in beer, the low ph, alcohol, and hops kill it.

Sorry for the drift...back on topic, boutique rimfire would be cool, I'd love to know if low cost equipment exists. High quality CF ammo and beer can be made in a home kitchen...what is the smallest size/cost rimfire setup?

Another problem is the market, I pay extra for local microbrew, not so much for .22 lr. Boutique usually = higher (real or perceived) quality for higher cost.

I'm not willing to pay high prices for .22 even with a shortage, I just get email alerts and rarely it works out that I pick a box of 500 for a decent price. Otherwise, I'll patiently wait for the silliness to end, then stock up a bit more.

Anyone know or want to project how many rounds of .22LR the US consumers were buying and/or using PRIOR to this stepped up demand, per week? Then we might predict what the post-scare consumption might be.

Surely the Chinese would be happy to make cheap 22 ammo so they can pay slave wages.

Click to expand...

Clinton made such things illegal to import from China. That's why there are no new imports of Norinco SKS's.