I'm a bad shot :(

Did you try loading snap caps in you mags randomly to see how bad you're flinching?

poetdante said:

Actually yes but more importantly when I shoot but forget to rack the slide with a new mag I notice a slight flinch. But when I shoot I don't notice a flinch. When I dry fire with snap caps I see no flinch. So there's one part of the issue it seems.

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Here ya' go, let someone else load your mags. You won't know how many rounds are in them, or if they snuck a snap cap in.

My understanding that overcoming a flinch is muscle memory (from dry presses) to overcome the fact you body knows that when you pull the trigger, you are going to have a small explosion in your hands... Which is not natural.

poetdante said:

Actually yes but more importantly when I shoot but forget to rack the slide with a new mag I notice a slight flinch. But when I shoot I don't notice a flinch. When I dry fire with snap caps I see no flinch. So there's one part of the issue it seems.

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A "slight flinch" could put you way off target.

You won't notice the flinch if the gun goes off, that's why you try to sneak the dummy rounds in. If you flinch when you thought the gun was gonna go off, you're jerking the gun for sure.

Do yourself a favor and throw that pie chart away. It only applies to one handed shooting and will only cause you grief.

Most problems for first time shooters are a combination of poor trigger discipline, sight alignment issues, and anticipating recoil. From what I can see from your photos your grip looks fine. You inconsistently inconsistent groups suggest more trigger discipline and sight alignment issues.

1.) Dry fire at home, focusing on pressing the trigger straight backwards while keeping the sights as still as possible. Use a reference point on the wall or stick up a target. Get in the habit of getting the best sight picture you can before pressing the trigger. A good way to do this is to balance a coin on top of the slide or front sight (if possible) and practice your trigger pull. It'll be easier to start with the SA trigger pull first.

2.) Bring the target closer to you. Try 5 yards.

3.) Invest in some snap caps so you can run ball and dummy drills. Next time you go shooting, either have someone load your magazines with a few snap caps in with live ammunition or do it with your eyes closed if you can. You will find out just how much you're flinching from anticipation. This works ONLY if you don't know where the dummy rounds are in the magazine. Most people are shocked at how much they flinch because they don't notice it when the gun recoils. Once you've identified a flinch, you'll begin to feel yourself doing it as you're about to press the trigger. When this happens, STOP. Take a breath, and relax. Go back to Number 1 above, and focus on keeping the sights rock solid while you press the trigger. Focus only on those two things. Forget about fighting the recoil -- you can't prevent the gun from recoiling, but it won't fly out of your hands either. IMO this is the hardest thing to overcome as a.) you have to realize you're going it and b.) flinching is a natural reaction that you have to learn to control.

4.) Don't keep shooting if you notice yourself fatiguing and your form going to crap. They say the definition of insanity is to keep repeating the same thing when it's not working. And you're just throwing money away. If you get tired after 50 rounds, it's time to pack up and go home, rest, and dry fire. I used to feel like I had to "make up" for not getting out to the range as often as I'd like by continuing to shoot even after I'd tired out until I realized it was counter productive.

An added thought (until you get a class under your belt), us a bullseye-type target, not a silhouette. It will give you one, single point to aim to (the bullseye), and help sight picture/alignment consistency. It will also least make your chart somewhat useful. If you notice, it's a circle (and not shaped like a person).

I agree, training, dry fire exercise, then range time and patience should yield satisfactory results.

Good luck

poetdante: The chart is wrong. Throw it out, and never look at it again. There are two problems with it,one technical, and one psychological.

Technically the chart is for one handed bullseye shooting. As soon as you start using a two-handed hold, its invalid.

Pshychologically, the chart causes you to focus on what you are doing wrong, which is absolutely the wrong way to get better. If, in your head, you are thinking "Don't jerk, don't jerk" you will jerk the trigger, pretty much guaranteed.

To shoot a handgun accurately you need to do exactly two things: Aim the gun at the right place, and pull the trigger without moving the gun. That's it. Alpha and Omega, Soup to Nuts, Start to finish.

The most difficult part of the process to grasp is that aiming and pulling the trigger are not separate processes, aiming and pulling the trigger happen together, and inform each other.

Again, aim the gun at the right place, and pull the trigger without moving the gun. End of story. everything else is fluff.

poetdante said:

Well so far my aim isn't the biggest issue it seems. I got a laserlyte trainer bullet (works half the time like it should so not really worth $100 but I'm not able to shoot for the rest of the month too much) and the red dot hits around where the sights set, occassionally it's a tad to the left from 15ft. So most likely, it's the twitch. Since we (yes WE, I couldn't have done it without everyone here, you guys give the internet a good reputation) have crossed out my grip and sight acquisition, the only thing left is trigger pull. Am I right?

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That product sucks. I got it half off, returned it for warranty, came back just as bad, got a refund.

What are you hoping to achieve with the laser feedback? I have a SIRT G17 and while it is great I'd say the laser feedback is not that useful on a regular basis.

It works great though, and the laser is very good for some painless and safe FOF, safe room clearing practice, stuff like that.

Since the actual Glocks I own (obviously) aren't DAO the most valuable aspect is simply being able to work trigger reset and make multiple shots without racking the slide manually.

If you care about the laser consider the student SIRT for sure. And the fact that it isn't a firearm and can be traveled with easily, no need for backstop, is also nice. Ditto for teaching people safe gun handling and fundamentals without the "oh s***" moments that might occur with a real gun.

Are the sights being moved around by the trigger pull? that's all that matters.
I think one of the things people have a hard time with is the concept that pulling the trigger and aiming are happening at the same time.

The best analogy I've come up with is with driving a car down the road( in the 10 minutes I've been trying). You don't get the car aimed down the road, let go of the steering wheel and then accelerate. You use the accelerator and the steering wheel together to get the car where its going. Steering (aiming) and the gas pedal (trigger) are used in coordination.

One of the mind games i used to play is that I imagined that the front sight was attached to the trigger, and it could slide backwards though the rear sight. The goal was to pull the front sight through the center of the rear sight notch by squeezing the trigger.

When you are trying to do this,there is no way you can slap the trigger, or jerk it, or push the gun to the side with your finger, because both the squeezing of the trigger and sight alignment are requiring focus, you're looking HARD at the front sight, and you are using the sight alignment to correct your trigger pull through out the shot.

Try it the next time you dryfire. When you think you get the mind game, try it live fire, by shooting at blank 3x5cards. I'd start doing it with straight DA or something with a mushy trigger first, because it will be easier to get the visualization down., I think you will be surprised at the tiny little groups you shoot. It worked wonders for my bullseye scores.

9mmEpiphany, I know we've talked about that mind game before, have you ever tried it out?

In fact, I think I'm going to throw on my gunbelt and mess with some dry fire right now.

Good thread.

THR sure is an impressive forum. There is lots of great advice in the posts above. After reading through over four pages on this thread I have two things to contribute.

For me, similar to going fishing and not getting a bite, a day at the range when my accuracy is disappointing is still a good day spent enjoying my hobby.

Also, attached is a much better analysis target to be used for two-handed handgun shooting. I saw it posted somewhere online, but do not remember where, so I cannot credit the source. I believe it can be useful for both beginners and experienced shooters. See what you think.

I'd print that off and take it to the range, but as I am the trainer for my club I had better not. I think it might intimidate the newbies.

That is great, will have to send a copy to my instructor...

Radagast said:

I'd print that off and take it to the range, but as I am the trainer for my club I had better not. I think it might intimidate the newbies.

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You could edit it to say "nope!" "Still no" "try again" and other various goofy and less mean sounding stuff.

It would still serve the purpose well of debunking the validity of the bullseye diagnostic target. For that matter you could paste and print the reason why it isn't useful here.

One of our local training companies has a class aptly named (tongue in cheek) "You Suck, It's Not the Gun!" which addresses these issues. It's one of their most asked for classes and almost always fills with new and experienced shooters alike. I don't think the "improved" pie chart would be intimidating or off-putting provided it's presented in the right context.

^^^^

Actually, I rather like the name of that class! It's very direct and succinct and appeals to my sense of humor!

If you're trying to "double tap" it seems the fundamentals haven't been explained or sunk in yet.