How speed shooters aim their gun so quickly

[mikemyers]

A question for MrBorland... This is based on a response you made to a different thread not that long ago:

....BTW, good Steel Challenge shooters don't wait for the feedback "ring". That's much too slow - vision and subconsciousness is much faster - so like in shooting for groups, these guys use their sights to see what they need to see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAfcbBAbRiQ

Following video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJvT3Cd4iME

I watched the one minute video you linked to, and then the second, one-hour video came on. I kept right on watching, seeing so many people firing rapidly, then the same people in slow motion, with the audio track explaining how each of them did it, and what they each did differently.

In almost every case, as soon as the gun had been extended out away from their body, they took the first shot.

My question is how they learned to extend the gun, such that it was perfectly aimed at the target? With my total lack of any such ability, I move the gun in front of me, align it with the target, think about the shot, then fire. Even in slow motion it seems like many of these shooters already have the gun lined up with the target even before it's in front of their eyes.

I'm not asking about "how to do it", as there's a better chance of me hitting a home run in a major league baseball game than doing this - but I'm just asking "how it's done".

Do they just have so much practice doing this, that the gun automatically goes to the right spot?

Or, are they lining up the gun even while it's not yet in front of their eyes?

Can they do this just as quickly, if it's the first time they shoot at a set of targets, or do they learn by practicing with the targets already in the position where they'll be shot at?

 

[JohnKSa]

My question is how they learned to extend the gun, such that it was perfectly aimed at the target?

It takes a LOT of slow repetitions with the gun in question.

Start with a target in a very natural position for you to aim at. In other words, to begin with, you want a target that's more or less directly in front of you.

Take a good grip on the gun and put it at low ready. Then bring the gun up to aim at target very slowly insuring that as it comes up the sights are already aligned on the target.

The key is to make every repetition perfect so that it is helping you to learn how it feels to do it right. Don't try to do it fast unless you can do it fast AND perfectly. If you do it fast but wrong you're actually working against your goal.

Do it a few hundred times and you'll be able to speed up some. A few thousand times and the gun will come up quite rapidly and with the sights already aligned.

Keep working and you can eventually achieve the ability to look at a target (even one that's not directly in front of you), close your eyes, and bring the gun up on target with the sights aligned and relatively close to being right where you want them.

By the way, it helps a lot if you pick a gun that comes up fairly close to being on target without any need for all the work. You can, through the process above learn to get any gun to come up on target for you, but why make things hard for yourself.

 

[M-Cameron]

its called "point shooting"

take a laser pointer......hold it by your hip, look at the doorknob across the room( and keep your eyes fixed on it), and try to hit the doorknob with the laser.....not gonna hit it.

now do the same thing, but with the laser pointer at eye level......keep your eyes fixed on the target( and dont try to "aim")....and try to hit it......bet youll hit it 90% of the time.

its the same principal just with a handgun.

at some point the sights are actually quite useless....its not bullseye accurate, but for steel target, you bet.

i can do the same thing with a rifle, and can nail shotgun hulls at 25yds with out sights on my gun.......takes practice but its not terribly difficult

 

[Deaf Smith]

Mike,

Speed shooting is by index and trigger control.

They first learn index by using sights and memorizing the hold it takes to make the shot.

Later as skill increases they don't need to see the sight so much since they always bring it up to the same place for the shot.

Some become so good they can subconsciously see the sights as they 'flash' by and know where the shot landed.

To understand this all I strongly suggest you go to Brian Enos website.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?act=idx

And read. He is a master at this and his forum has many shooters who post.

Deaf

 

[Old Fuff]

...take a laser pointer......hold it by your hip, look at the doorknob across the room( and keep your eyes fixed on it), and try to hit the doorknob with the laser.....not gonna hit it.

I have a news flash for 'ya.

 

[mikemyers]

....To understand this all I strongly suggest you go to Brian Enos website......http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?act=idx.....And read. He is a master at this and his forum has many shooters who post.....

Just to be clear, I'm not in any way trying to learn how to DO this. I'm just trying to understand how it's done. I'll check out that website and read. I'm curious about a lot of things, but there's a limited number of new things my brain can handle before the OVERLOAD light starts flashing!

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'm just trying to understand how it's done.

It is done by:

1. Bringing the gun up high enough and early enough that your eyes can pick up the sights as you push out to extension.
2. Bringing the sights to your line of sight as opposed to looking for them after you've reach extension
3. Prepping the trigger on the way to full extension
4. Allowing your subconscious to see the sights...as opposed to looking at them
5. Allowing your perception of the aligned sights, on target, cue your final trigger press...as opposed to consciously verifying and then making the decision to fire

 

[MrBorland]

Just to add something to 9mm's list that's very important for fast shooting: A neutral grip.

A grip is neutral when the muzzle and front sight return to its starting point after a shot is fired. It's not the muzzle rise itself that slows people down - the rise and fall of the muzzle happens really fast. What slows people down is looking for and re-aligning the front sight. When the grip is neutral, the front sight comes down aligned.

Also, a lot of these top USPSA/Steel Challenge guys also don't use the sights like you might think. They're looking at the target, not the front sight. They see through the sights, so they're subconsciously aware of them. Combined with a neutral grip, they simply trust their subconscious to confirm sight alignment before it (also the subconscious) breaks the shot.

Bottom line: Have a really good and efficient draw, a really good index, a neutral grip, then get out of your own way and let your subconscious run the gun. It takes a lot of practice.

 

[Sam1911]

Also, a lot of these top USPSA/Steel Challenge guys also don't use the sights like you might think. They're looking at the target, not the front sight. They see through the sights, so they're subconsciously aware of them. Combined with a neutral grip, they simply trust their subconscious to confirm sight alignment before it (also the subconscious) breaks the shot

I was going to post something like this. At the distances we're considering here, there isn't a "find and align the sights" phase of the process. Your draw and good practice puts the gun up where it needs to be and you simply notice that the front sight is where it needs to be as you're manipulating the trigger.



There is, however, not one single way of using the sights correctly, but a range or "continuum" of sight refinement.

At <2 yards, with practice, all you need really is a body index to the target. Shooting from retention (Position 2 of the draw-stroke) and orienting your torso toward the threat will put hits on the target. (Without extending the gun toward the threat, so he can grab it and/or deflect your shot.)

More distance, like out to 4-5 yards for most folks, you can get those hits by just seeing the silhouette of the back of the slide flash into view, superimposed on the threat in front of you. At those distances you have close to zero time to work with and your focus is going to be entirely on that threat. Seeing peripherally that the gun is pointed the right way and held on the target will be enough to put those hits on the target.

Adding a little more distance, you need that front sight to come clearly into view. The focus starts to shift away from the target itself, and fully onto the front sight. That's the primary mechanism for MOST good pistol shooting: See the front sight in clear focus and put that sharp, focused front sight directly on the target, which is slightly blurry in your distant field of view. That should be able to carry you out to at least 20 yards, IMHO, as long as your trigger control is good.

Much longer range than that will start to require careful "dressing" of the sight picture where you take the time to really SEE the rear sight and the front sight and get off that slow "surprise break" of the trigger.

Real mastery comes in being able to make the transition smoothly and naturally from one target to the next -- at whatever ranges -- and achieve the hits you need, taking the least time to do so.

 

[Ankeny]

Mr. Borland pretty much nailed it. In addition to the neutral grip, USPSA and SC shooters also have the relationship of their natural point of aim, balance, and stance pretty well nailed. Their index is fast (moving their eyes and then the gun) to the next target.

Some of the 10 round Steel Challenge targets are out to 18 and 20 yards. The better shooters are indeed aiming. They know what is visually acceptable as far as sight alignment and sight picture, and they break the shot without screwing it all up. It really is simple, it just isn't easy.

As far as preparing the trigger between targets, let's just say many of the faster shooters don't even touch the trigger until they are on target, then they slap it silly.

 

[strambo]

It starts with a good grip. The muzzle in line with your forearm. Put a small target like a post it note at chest level 3yds. Square your shoulders to the target and have your feet shoulder width apart, one foot a half step in front.

Now, do the steps posted by 9mmepiphany:

1. Bringing the gun up high enough and early enough that your eyes can pick up the sights as you push out to extension.
2. Bringing the sights to your line of sight as opposed to looking for them after you've reach extension
3. Prepping the trigger on the way to full extension
4. Allowing your subconscious to see the sights...as opposed to looking at them
5. Allowing your perception of the aligned sights, on target, cue your final trigger press...as opposed to consciously verifying and then making the decision to fire

Do it at half speed timing the trigger break to extension. The speed will slowly pick up. When you have it down at 1/2 to 3/4 speed, do it with your eyes closed visualizing the perfect shot, open them and see how close your are. Don't be too shocked if your sights are on eyes closed after some practice.

I'm not saying you can do this like a pro in a session or two, but to think you can't ever do it is selling yourself short. Provided you are building on the right foundation (good grip and stance), it doesn't take too long to develop a good index.

 

[MrBorland]

many of the faster shooters don't even touch the trigger until they are on target, then they slap it silly.

"Slapping" needs some clarification, lest someone interprets it to mean something it doesn't.

"Slapping the trigger" simply means getting physically and completely off the trigger on it's return. It doesn't imply, in any way, poor trigger control.

Semi-autos have a reset somewhere along their return travel (i.e. before the full return) where the sear resets and the gun can fire again. Many go to great lengths to discuss a particular pistol's great/lousy reset, but good action shooters don't give a whit about it: Letting the trigger out just enough to reset is far too slow and cumbersome, so they just get off the trigger completely, and "slap" away.

 

[Sam1911]

As far as preparing the trigger between targets, let's just say many of the faster shooters don't even touch the trigger until they are on target, then they slap it silly.

Another point here is that the techniques are, or can be, slightly different for revolvers vs. autos at least for some shots at some distances. With that looooong heavier pull a lot of revolver shooters certainly do slightly stage or prep their trigger during transitions and when they can.

 

[Jim K]

They do that the same way Brady or Roethlisberger can casually throw a football so it lands in the arms of a running wide receiver 80 yards down field. It is called practice, hand-eye coordination, practice, a goodly helping of natural athleticism, and practice. Did I mention practice? A lot.

Jim

 

[That Chimichanga Dude]

Long, tiring, monotonous hours of practice, practice, practice, concentrating on doing each stage of the process correctly and letting the speed come with time and reps.

Anyone who has served in the military knows the old adage that one aww-crud wipes out 10 atta-boys. The same principle applies to training...doing it wrong once wipes out ten times you did it right previously. Concentrate on doing it right until doing it right becomes natural because it is ingrained in your muscle memory.

 

[Double_J]

I remember doing dry fire practice with an a air soft pistol. It took HOURS of slow steady draw/aim strokes before I felt comfortable doing a full speed stroke. Then I went to the range and practiced with live ammo on a sheet of 15" by 15" paper. I spent a lot of time doing endless practice on draw strokes, trigger pulling, and movement. The only real advice is perfect practice followed by more perfect practice.

 

[9mmepiphany]

"Slapping" needs some clarification, lest someone interprets it to mean something it doesn't.

Yes, this is very important...so that shooters, still learning correct trigger management, don't go down the wrong path.

I've never understood how "slapping the trigger" became so popular when "jerking the trigger" seemed perfectly understandable and accurate

 

[improperlyaged]

There is an old saying that fits here. Amateurs practice till they get right, professionals practice till they can't get it wrong.

 

[strambo]

A well-practiced shooter can "slap" a 1911 trigger w/o disturbing the barrel alignment, an amateur can't.

I remember Bruce Gray talked about most Pros shooting 1911s getting away with slapping the trigger in the context of teaching us to reset during recoil w/o taking the finger off the trigger. I was shooting a DA/SA P226. Not sure if the Pros are slapping the triggers on striker fired (or any non-SA) guns or not?

At any rate, trigger control is trigger control, you either have it or you don't.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

One point that wasn't really emphasized was the shooter "thrusts the gun into his sight picture."

Look at the target, draw and bring the gun up into your line of sight. Your eyes shouldn't even move.

Another trick is to adopt a modified sight picture. You see the front sight sticking up above the rear sight as the gun is coming up and you learn how much sight can stick up at a given hold. In essence, you fire when the gun enters your field of vision from below.

 

[Ankeny]

I've never understood how "slapping the trigger" became so popular when "jerking the trigger" seemed perfectly understandable and accurate

In competition cricles slapping the trigger is a controlled same speed in same speed out fluid and controlled motion. Jerking is considered to be more of a spasmodic or uncontrolled action. Just more terminology depending on who you talk with.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I should have been more specific.

I meant how Slapping the trigger, became interchangeable with Jerking the trigger among non-competitors

 

[g.willikers]

Boy do those guys in the hour long video look young.
That's a very old video, but still valid.
So, Mike, after watching it, do you doubt the information there?
They explain it quite well, don't they?
Or do you suspect there's really someone off camera with a rifle doing the actual shooting?

 

[mikemyers]

Ha! No, not any more, but I used to think that things like that were creations of Hollywood. Nowadays, I don't doubt that it CAN be done, but it still seems incredible. It's like landing a man on the moon. Anything CAN be done I guess - well, almost anything. Heck, I had a similar feeling about watching a video of MrBorland shoot, and I played it back in slow motion so I could see what he was doing. After that, I was just wondering how he got that good, but he's mostly explained it here already.

A lifetime or more ago, there were shows put on for people to pay to watch sharpshooters. Too bad they don't have those any more.

To me, I used to think this was like the Lone Ranger or one of the TV stars making incredible shots while on horseback. Hollywood. Nowadays, maybe there really is a person that good?

 

[Old Fuff]

Those old western movies - as well as many later ones - did indeed set up how the shooting scenes were filmed. Put frankly the actors weren't good enough to do it themselves. This is not to say that they're wasn't anyone who could.

Have doubts? Buy a copy of a book, Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting, by Ed. McGivern. The first edition was published around 1940. An original copy will set you back over $100, but later reprints, including the current one will be more like $25 to $30 in hard cover.

Some current day shooters will get a real education.