How speed shooters aim their gun so quickly

[9mmepiphany]

Just to give you an idea of how a lot of shooting quickly is technique...as opposed to supernatural skill:

I used to teach with a USPSA Grand Master. We used to travel around the country an hold classes for regular folks...like doctors, engineers, IT folks, home remodelers.

By the end of a 2.5 day class, most were keeping all their shots in the "A" zone of a USPSA target at the rate of approximately 4 shots a second. At a slower pace, we also had all the class members cut a playing card in half, edgewise, from 3-5 yards...this is actually a parlor trick, but it made folks happy

 

[mikemyers]

'Old Fluff', I bought that book long ago (a copy, not the original) and read more than half of it, passing over much of the rifle shooting. It's now on loan to my brother.

Two thoughts - first, what they were able to do, time after time, was incredible! Second thought, he wrote about how much ammunition they needed to get that good, and at today's prices, I doubt many people could afford that, even with reloading.

Reminds me of the photo MrBorland posted of his old rimfire brass:



Assuming I'm still thinking of the right book (there was another similar book), he wrote about exhibitions they put on, where the shooting at wood blocks, clay targets, or whatever went on for ages, and he needed multiple people to continually reload his guns and throw up whatever it was he was shooting at. The number of hits was absolutely amazing!!!!!! As I recall, he shot hundreds of hits before he missed one block, and continued on hitting hundreds more, over and over.


'9mmepiphany' - yep, technique, and endless practice. ....and either a very good sponsor, or lots of $$$ for equipment and supplies....

 

[1MoreFord]

OP, that 2nd video was back in the early days of my "shooting career". Pre optical sights. The pros were still shooting cast bullets from the smoke you can see and I shot with everyone I saw in the video for the time I watched it. JMP was in my home club. They(we) all practiced a lot and dry fired even more. Dry firing saved a bunch of $$ and time. It's a lot easier to acquire a new skill w/o the noise and recoil.

The "trick" was to have a stable stance; acquire a good grip on the gun, then draw the gun, and raise the gun to your line of sight and then extend your arms to full extension while cushioning the final extension. You don't want any dips or abrupt stops. Takes a lot less time to do it than it does to explain it. After you have done this 10's of thousands of times it becomes 2nd nature like riding a bicycle.

At the height of my "career" I was shooting over 25K rounds a year practising 6-7 days a week in season and I was still a small time ameture compaired to the guys in the video. While I didn't see Tommy Campbell in the time I watched I'll use him for an example. Tommy shot over $100K in ammo a year thru his connections with S&W and Federal. On Smith and Federal's dime of course. He'd call his friends to come over and collect once fired brass from his personal shooting range before he mowed the range.

Back in the days of the 2nd video Leatham and Enos were light years ahead of everyone else. Plaxco sought them out to learn their techniques. Plaxco and Enos became friends and Plaxco learned what they were doing. When Brian's book(1st book?) came out a lot of people didn't comprehend what Brian was saying and JMP wrote a book then called the English translation of Brian's book. Several of us in JMP's local club proofread his book.

Sorry for the rambling but it's approaching a drunk ole phart's bedtime. Bottom line is it's time, money, practice, and training.

 

[mikemyers]

Wow, pretty awesome to meet you (electronically), as you were actually THERE way back when, and lived through it. Don't worry about "rambling"; ramble as much as you like, preferably MUCH more, about what it was like back then!

I only found the video accidentally; it came on after the video MrBorland suggested finished playing. I didn't realize how long it was until it went on, and on, and then when I found out it was a full hour, I put it on pause until later, and watched all of it.

I guess between the video, and your recollections from back then, it's "living history".


Just one thought:
"Bottom line is it's time, money, practice, and training."

That matches what others have said, but I think there's more to it than that. Some people's internal clocks seem to run much faster than other people's, and which allows them to do things perfectly, very quickly. I could train for ten lifetimes, and never be able to throw a touchdown pass in a major league football game. I could spend forever reading Einstein's documentation, and still would never really comprehend it. After all the work of trying to shoot better, while I've improved, my eyesight and my muscle coordination and other things will never ever allow me to do many of these things to such a professional level. Congratulations on doing what you've done, and being part of it!

 

[Ankeny]

1MoreFord:

I still have a copy of the "old tape" when the video first came out. Too bad I don't have a way to play the darn thing. Of all the shooters in the tape, Ken Tapp is/was my hero. That guy was fast even at 60.

As for the "English" versions of Brian Enos' book, the contents have been repackaged and sold again countless times by the "newer" breed of instructors.

 

[mikemyers]

'Ankeny', if you know someone with a VCR and a computer, you can do what I've been doing - copy from the tape to a computer. This device makes it easy:
http://www.amazon.com/Dazzle-DVD-Recorder-VHS-Converter/dp/B00EAS14KI
I've got the older version, and the one I linked to may be in the process of being discontinued.
Once it's on a computer, it can be upload to YouTube, to share with everyone.
Or, ask me in July, and if you send me the tape, I can send you back a CD or DVD, or upload it.

 

[g.willikers]

Unless I missed something, the Dazzle unit allows the connection of various cables to transfer the data.
But to input the data, the respective play back unit will be needed - a vcr or dvd player.
Yes?
So far, our local Goodwill stores usually still have vcrs for sale, if needbe.

As to making use of dryfire techniques to practice without going broke, check out the Steve Anderson books on the subject, available from the usual sources, including brianenos.com.
http://www.brianenos.com/store/books.html

 

[mikemyers]

Sort of - you don't need anything to copy from a CD or DVD, as the data is already in digital format. To copy from a VCR (analog data) to a computer, you need an "Analog to Digital Converter) which is built into the Dazzle device (mady by Pinnacle, which was sold to Corel).

You are correct that something is needed to play the video tape so the data can be captured. A VCR is the only solution I know of. Cheap ones used to be available for $50 or so. You take the yellow video plug and the red or black audio plug on the VCR, and connect to the Dazzle. If you have a stereo VCR, there will be two plugs. Then, there is a USB connector from the Dazzle that goes into the computer.

Goodwill is a great idea, or even Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=vcr


I should add, don't wait until it's too late. Video tapes don't last forever. The ones I have from the 1980's are still good, but to copy them, I "fast forward" from beginning to end, then rewind, and only then click on 'play' while I'm capturing the video on my computer. Also, try not to start and stop the VCR the way you may remember from years ago - treat the video tapes as if they are extremely fragile, which they may well be. And you may need to adjust the 'tracking' control to get a clear picture.

 

[Confederate]

The way I speed shoot is that I never look at the gun, only the target, and I fire repeatedly until out of ammo. The only difference between your more well known speed shooters and me is that they hit what they're aiming at and I just pepper the countryside where bad guys might be hiding. :banghead:

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The way I speed shoot is that I never look at the gun, only the target, and I fire repeatedly until out of ammo. The only difference between your more well known speed shooters and me is that they hit what they're aiming at and I just pepper the countryside where bad guys might be hiding.

A wise man once said, "In a gunfight you can't miss fast enough to win."

 

[1MoreFord]

"That matches what others have said, but I think there's more to it than that. Some people's internal clocks seem to run much faster than other people's, and which allows them to do things perfectly, very quickly. I could train for ten lifetimes, and never be able to throw a touchdown pass in a major league football game. I could spend forever reading Einstein's documentation, and still would never really comprehend it. After all the work of trying to shoot better, while I've improved, my eyesight and my muscle coordination and other things will never ever allow me to do many of these things to such a professional level."

Yes, true. That's why IPSC/USPSA instituted classes.

I once watched Leatham shoot a stage where you started kneeling pretending to change a flat tire. Everyone did the normal thing. Draw while standing up and then get in stance and start shooting. Robbie drew while standing up and started shooting while still standing up and before he got his arms to full extension. He blew everyone away on that stage. So, yes ability is part of the equation too. But you'd be surprised how much good training from a good instructor will improve what you're capable of. When I first saw the guy who was my mentor I was in disbelief at what he could do. Down the road I was as good or better than him. We each had our strong points and weak points but it would come down to who had a good day, who didn't, and how the stages of fire matched our abilities.

 

[strambo]

So, yes ability is part of the equation too. But you'd be surprised how much good training from a good instructor will improve what you're capable of. When I first saw the guy who was my mentor I was in disbelief at what he could do. Down the road I was as good or better than him. We each had our strong points and weak points but it would come down to who had a good day, who didn't, and how the stages of fire matched our abilities.

Exactly. Whenever we have a "Do you need training?" thread, there are many posters who opine why they don't need training and how it won't do much for them (I'm not a commando, blah-blah).

You don't know what you don't know, it is amazing how good (and how quickly) someone can become with some high quality instruction.

 

[mikemyers]

Maybe this should be a new thread, all by itself, but once you realize that good training can help improve one's shooting, where and how do you find an appropriate person to learn from?

 

[strambo]

Here is a start: http://aliastraining.com/patmcnamara2-daytaps-nov13-142015-staugustineflorida.aspx This trainer is former SFOD (Delta). Alias has lots of trainers, lots of options.

My general advice is save up and go to a class with a nationally known instructor/shooting school closest to you.

Edit: I just realized I linked a combo carbine/pistol class, just find a 2-3 day pistol only course to start.

 

[1MoreFord]

".......where and how do you find an appropriate person to learn from?"

With the advent of Al Gore's internet things have gotten easier since you can ask this sort of question on forums.

Back when I got instruction most of it was word of mouth or out of gun publications. I was fortunate to live a few miles away from and shoot with a gold squad IPSC shooter and I was wanting to improve my match scores. That made it an easy decision.

The first thing you need to decide is what kind of instruction do you want. USPSA/IPSC or practical self defense? Very different subject matter. Then start asking for info online along with the ole fashioned lines of info too.

 

[mikemyers]

.......With the advent of Al Gore's internet things have gotten easier since you can ask this sort of question on forums.....

Yeah, had it not been for Al Gore, we'd all be sitting at home, reading books and magazines, and have hours and hours more free time to shoot!


As to finding a coach, I think I did, and as to what type of instruction I want help with, that's easy. I want to reliably put 15 shots into a two-inch diameter group at 15 yards. Note that I said "reliably". Thanks to the wonderful help in Al Gore's creation, the discussions here have actually helped me do just what I want. I should send off a thank-you note to Mr. Gore.

The difference between now and a year or two ago, back then I thought all my goals were vaporware, never to happen. Again, with help from this forum, and the book "The Perfect Pistol Shot", I now believe that almost anything is possible, with enough practice and some coaching.

 

[joneb]

So a 167gr lead bullet with 4.9gr of Bullseye is moving how fast? I was assuming this load was for a 45 acp?
What ME meets power factor?

 

[mikemyers]

So a 167gr lead bullet with 4.9gr of Bullseye is moving how fast? I was assuming this load was for a 45 acp?
What ME meets power factor?

I think this is something Al Gore didn't anticipate when he designed all this. Either somehow we got our channels crossed, or you're trying to confuse me more than I'm already confused, or I'm missing something here.


I do want to eventually understand bullet speeds, and how to measure them, but all I can suggest is you look that data up in one of the reloading manuals that gives bullet speed. Knowing nothing about this, wouldn't bullet speed also depend on the type of gun it was fired from, as a longer barrel allows the bullet to build up more speed, and also on the speed when it first leaves the gun, or after a certain distance, as it gets slowed down by the atmosphere..... and maybe also the shape of the bullet?

I'll let Al know he got his channels crossed somehow.

 

[joneb]

Sorry Mike, I watched the "how to shoot fast" video from your first post, Jerry Barnhart shared a load he uses 4.9gr of Bullseye with a 173gr bullet. That load @ 800 fps is about 246 ft-lbs, I was wondering how the power factor relates to muzzle energy.

The above data doesn't seem right. I load a 200gr LTC with 4.8gr of Bullseye with a COL of 1.2, this load averages 830fps from a 4.25" barrel.
Well anyway, "How speed shooters aim their gun so quickly" one piece to the puzzle is the load their shooting.

 

[JohnKSa]

<<<This post was in answer to a question which apparently no longer exists... JohnKSa>>>

"Power factor" is a scaled version of the momentum of the projectile and muzzle energy is the kinetic energy of the projectile.

Power factor is the muzzle velocity (in feet per second) times the weight of the projectile (in grains) divided by 1000. Power factor is a calculation devised by "practical" pistol competition organizations to define "major" and "minor" calibers.

Muzzle energy is the muzzle velocity (in feet per second) times itself and then times the weight of the projectile (in grains) divided by 450436. Kinetic energy is a physical quantity that relates to the potential of a moving object to do work.

 

[joneb]

Muzzle energy is the muzzle velocity (in feet per second) times itself and then times the weight of the projectile (in grains) divided by 450436. Kinetic energy is a physical quantity that relates to the potential of a moving object to do work.

My way of calculating muzzle energy,
velocity divided 1000 and then squared, multiplied by 2.219 and then multiplied by the bullet weight.
I'm still a bit confused, what additional information is gained by the "power factor" that muzzle energy does not provide?

 

[mikemyers]

(Is there a web page somewhere, that explains what you guys are talking about, in a way that I'll understand it better, as well as what it means, and why it is useful?)

 

[JohnKSa]

I'm still a bit confused, what additional information is gained by the "power factor" that muzzle energy does not provide?

Momentum can give you some useful information. It relates to how hard it is to stop a moving object.

Power factor is a made up calculation used to classify calibers for scoring purposes in certain "practical" pistol competitions.

...velocity divided 1000 and then squared, multiplied by 2.219 and then multiplied by the bullet weight.

That's pretty handy. You might as well use 2.22 though. It's even easier to remember and is just as accurate from a practical standpoint.

 

[9mmepiphany]

If you guys want to talk about ammo and power factor, please start a different thread and not derail this one

 

[joneb]

That's pretty handy. You might as well use 2.22 though.

I agree.

If you guys want to talk about ammo and power factor, please start a different thread and not derail this one

Sorry,
but what was the title of this thread? I think the ammo used by these speed shooters adds some weight to the answer.