Who'd have guessed there'd be so much trouble making new Enfields?

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goon

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Long story short - the Canadians have been looking for a replacement for the aging No.4 Enfields issued to their arctic rangers for a few years. No surprise, they've been thinking the right path is a modernized Enfield... and it's hard to argue that.

Anyhow, complications persist...

http://www.casr.ca/mp-enfield.htm
 
Overly constrained acquisition. No-one is making mil-spec Enfields today, and what the Cdn gov't really want is a modern hunting-grade box magazine fed .308 Win bolt gun with some intermediate furniture and optic mount bells and whistles.

A design like the Ruger Scout with conventional optic mounting position comes to mind.

The complication is that the Cdn Gov't want to use Colt Canada for production, but Colt isn't setup to produce bolt guns in volume. So as an alternative they want one of Colt's competitors to sell a tech package to Colt with unlimited production rights for a bolt gun design. No-one intelligent in the industry is going to enable a new competitor.

IMHO what the Cdn gov't should do is pick a non-developmental product that meets their base requirement, contract with the mfgr for the base unit and work with Colt or some other vendor to get the stock and optic mount provisioning worked out.
 
maybe they should scrap the bolt gun idea a go with a simple AR10... Theres so many options out there, only a Gov't would come up with an idea like this. Trying to have Colt Canada tool up to produce a modern Enfield. Am I wrong to think there are more economical ways to arm the Artic Rangers? Not only more economically but just as reliably also?
 
Am I wrong to think there are more economical ways to arm the Artic Rangers? Not only more economically but just as reliably also?

No...but we are talking about Government here.....Aren't Savage's rimfires made in Canada? Maybe broker a deal with Savage
 
I lived for decades in the Far North of Canada, and have known quite a few of the people involved with the Rangers.... both the responsible military people and the civilian Rangers themselves.

There are a few considerations here.

1. The numbers are quite small.... think hundreds, instead of thousands.

2. The issued rifles, #4 Enfields up until the present time, are used by the individuals as REGULAR HUNTING RIFLES, meaning they get slopped around in salt water in the bottoms of boats and kayaks, and used in temperatures running FAR below zero degrees Fahrenheit. They are used on seals, walrus, caribou and polar bears.

3. The rifles are abused so badly that individuals were being issued a #4 EACH YEAR, and the rifle written off (no need to turn it back in).

4. The vast majority of "Rangers" are CIVILIAN native hunters, who mostly live on the land, water, and sea ice and whose military training is extremely rudimentary. Their main purpose as Rangers is simply to keep a watchful eye out for foreign-government activity in very remote areas of Canada's North.

It's a cheap cop-out by the Canadian authorities, to avoid spending REAL money for a formal military operation. Of course, it's serendipity that in this rare case, they actually are using men who really "have a clue" about their areas of residence.

With the limited training and unbelievably-harsh environment, I will say that probably NO autoloading rifle would survive for long in the Ranger ranks. The FALs we used in my Canadian Army days worked very well in Arctic conditions, but we were full-time soldiers and received extensive training and lots of practice opportunities in that climate.
 
Yeah, I haven't lived in Canada, but I have seen rifles that were used hard in Alaska. Abuse is exactly how you'd describe it.

If it's bad enough to scrap an Enfield after a year of service, then it's bad enough to kill off just about any rifle in production right now. Maybe the Canadians should have bought a million Mosin Nagants back when they were everywhere for dirt cheap and issued them instead.
 
Alaska had such a native militia type force during WWII called the Alaska Scouts. I believe they were issued Springfields, but could also use an M1 or even their own civilian rifles. After the war, many of the natives "soldiers" became National Guard and today the standard issue for armories is, of course the AR. Just as the .303 Brit is ubiquitous in Canada, the 5.56/.223 is thus in village Alaska. Are natives hard on rifles? In my opinion yes, for the most part. The Enfield is a tough old rifle and can take a beating (as evidenced by all the old Enfields and Ishies throughout Pakistan and Afghanistan), but as Bruce pointed out, saltwater is death on steel, especially if there is little accountability.

I would love to own a butter smooth No. 4 type rifle in stainless steel and chambered for .308... oh, and with decent scope mounts.
 
Their main purpose as Rangers is simply to keep a watchful eye out for foreign-government activity in very remote areas of Canada's North.

Seriously? And once they see the Russian Armored division coming, they're going to hold them off with their trusty Enfield?

My solution would be to hold a class on firearm maintenance and supply each Ranger with a cleaning kit and a quart of low viscosity oil. If your ancient Enfield gets rusty, you're fired. BB's description sounds like people taking advantage of the government and getting a new rifle every year which they give to their cousin.

Laphroaig
 
My memory may be fogged but I seem to remember that the Enfields are still being made in Australia. If I'm wrong, please post.
 
"Foreign government activity" can include lotsa lesser scenarios than a "Russian Armored division coming". Their job anyway would be like the PT boats at Surigao Straits: report approach of enemy to the main forces while laying fire to cover a tactical withdrawal. Or by their mere presence, discourage foreign activity like espionage, surveying, testing perimeters, etc.
 
No, Laphroaig, not "hold them off". Inform some governmental entity as to what was seen. These Rangers were scouts, and for a scout to get into a firefight is mission failure.

The rifle was essentially a survival rifle, and given the conditions, subject to hard use--as related above. Cleaning and oiling was on a "when able to" basis.
 
That's true Art it's not a main battle rifle but Laphroaig has a point. A rifle a year seems a bit excessive. It seems that if it were truly a survival tool then the Rangers would at least perform basic maintenance on it and even under the worst of conditions should last longer than a year.
 
Maybe a new Enfield every year is also part of the "pay" for the job. I wouldn't mind being paid in Enfields.
 
Seems to me that they need stainless Ruger GSR's, training on maintaining them and a little accountability. Using up a rifle every year seems very irresponsible and/or fishy. If my life depended on a rifle, I'd take care of it.
 
Because of the way gun laws are written in Canada, AR15/AR10 pattern rifles could not be stored at home by the Rangers. It would also complicate individual Rangers taking it into the field. That would be a show-stopper.

With the environmental demands on the design and the legal constraints, the replacement needs to be a bolt gun. The only chambering that makes any sense for something new is 7.62 NATO. (The Rangers are the last military organization in Canada using .303BR).
 
Overly constrained acquisition. No-one is making mil-spec Enfields today, and what the Cdn gov't really want is a modern hunting-grade box magazine fed .308 Win bolt gun with some intermediate furniture and optic mount bells and whistles.

A design like the Ruger Scout with conventional optic mounting position comes to mind.

The complication is that the Cdn Gov't want to use Colt Canada for production, but Colt isn't setup to produce bolt guns in volume. So as an alternative they want one of Colt's competitors to sell a tech package to Colt with unlimited production rights for a bolt gun design. No-one intelligent in the industry is going to enable a new competitor.

IMHO what the Cdn gov't should do is pick a non-developmental product that meets their base requirement, contract with the mfgr for the base unit and work with Colt or some other vendor to get the stock and optic mount provisioning worked out.

I see you are completely unfamiliar with the government procurement process :D
 
The Canadians shipped a bunch of Lee Enfields and M1917's to the US in 1992. I know, I bought a couple of Long Branch No4's , new in the grease, and they were cheap.

Too bad for the Rangers because I am not shipping any of mine back. :evil:
 
I lived for decades in the Far North of Canada, and have known quite a few of the people involved with the Rangers.... both the responsible military people and the civilian Rangers themselves.

There are a few considerations here.

1. The numbers are quite small.... think hundreds, instead of thousands.

2. The issued rifles, #4 Enfields up until the present time, are used by the individuals as REGULAR HUNTING RIFLES, meaning they get slopped around in salt water in the bottoms of boats and kayaks, and used in temperatures running FAR below zero degrees Fahrenheit. They are used on seals, walrus, caribou and polar bears.

3. The rifles are abused so badly that individuals were being issued a #4 EACH YEAR, and the rifle written off (no need to turn it back in).

4. The vast majority of "Rangers" are CIVILIAN native hunters, who mostly live on the land, water, and sea ice and whose military training is extremely rudimentary. Their main purpose as Rangers is simply to keep a watchful eye out for foreign-government activity in very remote areas of Canada's North.

It's a cheap cop-out by the Canadian authorities, to avoid spending REAL money for a formal military operation. Of course, it's serendipity that in this rare case, they actually are using men who really "have a clue" about their areas of residence.

With the limited training and unbelievably-harsh environment, I will say that probably NO autoloading rifle would survive for long in the Ranger ranks. The FALs we used in my Canadian Army days worked very well in Arctic conditions, but we were full-time soldiers and received extensive training and lots of practice opportunities in that climate.
It is strange that your FN-FAL worked in sub zero temps because in a last ditch effort to prevent the FN from being chosen over the M-14 the US Army conducted a test on an Alaskan base and the FN's had a lot of trouble to where the designer was flown in from Belgium and could not remedy them. So the M-14 won out. So I took mine out at 22 below and sure enough it would fire and not eject no matter where I set the gas valve at. I was able to work it like a bolt gun
 
It sounds like they just need to get on the phone with Remington and order up a bunch of these http://remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire/model-700/model-700-tactical-chassis.aspx , issue good cleaning kits, and tell those rangers they get 1 rifle every 5 years. If you depend on your rifle for survival, you're not getting in firefights often (if ever), and you can't clean it often enough to make it last longer than a year, you have issues.
 
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