Replacement for the L85?

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Nolo, I've fired a full auto FN and several other full autos 7.62x51mm. Yes, you can shoo them. No, you cannot hit s**t after the first round. Extensive test were done of the M14 and the FAL using auto fire in the 1960s. They all concluded that full auto from a full power rifle was useless. Soldiers were unable to put more than a single round on a man silhouette at 50 yards in full ato. Most were unable to put more than one hot at 25 yards. Hence no M15 production.

My experience is that most advocates of the FAL have never carried one while in uniform. Unlike at the range, you just don't amble the 5 feet from you car to the firing line. While a decent weapon, it shares much in common with the M14 and G3. It's long and heavy. The ammo is heavy too. Wait until you've marched 12 miles with an 80 pound ruck, a 10 pound rifle a hundred or so rouns of ammo.

And this is a weapon that really no more combat effective than a 223 except in very limited conditions.

The FAL is also expensive to manufacture and hard to service. It's WWII technology using massive chunks of machines steel, and even the type III reciver is fairly complex to make. The barrel requires a timed thread,m and the rifle has poor primary extraction thank to it's tipping bolt. Adjust the gas systenm incorrectly, and use commercial ammo and it will rip case heads right off.

It's also a poor platform for optics, or other ancilliary gear that is common in 21st century warfare.

In contrast, the M16 is a simple weapon, easy and relatively inexpensive to manufacture and service. Barrels can be replaced with simple tools, and as far as being able to reconfigure the rifle, the M16 is the lego of the gun world.

Is it the perfect weapon? Certainly not. But there is a good reason the M16 has remained in service for almost 50 years - making it the United States' longest serving rifle. And unlike many of the European wonder rifles, the M16 has actually been used in combat in multiple wars. About the only service rifle with more combat experience is the AK-47 and it's derivatives.
 
HorseSoldier,
IMO, the FAL is serious overkill for the 7x46mm. Why build a rifle bigger and heavier than it needs to be? Brazil has their 223 FAL as a cost saving measure.

Pick the cartridge, and then build the rifle around it. Ans KISS.
 
I agree with you, GunTech, about the weapon needing to be built around the round. That's what I do when I design firearms. Almost always, the cartridge comes first. Unless the cartridge already exists, in which case the concept comes first.
I think that a soldier is incapable of hitting anything beyond the first shot in full-auto (with an FAL) in certain (but important) circumstances. I can't see anyone hitting anything when running. I can't see anyone hitting anything when they aren't accustomed to and trained with the rifle to great extent. I think the acid test for automatic full-power rifles was the M14 and I just think that that weapon is not the one that should be the example. It (or, rather it's parent, the Garand) was designed as a semiauto rifle pushed to its limits by a big cartridge (the .30-06, as opposed to the .276 Pedersen). Throw in full auto and you have a mess (I like the M14, I just think people shouldn't judge automatic rifles by it). The FAL, while originally designed for the 7.92x33mm cartridge was quickly redesigned for the British 7mm round, which is far closer to the .308. Then it too was stretched to its limits by the .308, but I think it was much better gifted to handle it on full-auto. Note that when the Brits fought the Argentines in the Falklands, they often tried to get their hands on a full-auto FAL. I know those were special forces, but I see no reason why you couldn't train your military to properly use a full-auto FAL.
However, I haven't served with a rifle like the FAL, and, for that matter, I haven't served with anything at all. I've never shot at anywhere but a range, and even then infrequently. However, it is not my opinion/experience that I am basing this on. I am basing this on my best educated guesses, as tutored by many former servicemen, including some of you. I do think that our military would be well-off with an FAL (albeit of a more modern nature, perhaps), but I do not think that is the ideal weapon for our forces.
 
"My experience is that most advocates of the FAL have never carried one while in uniform. Unlike at the range, you just don't amble the 5 feet from you car to the firing line. While a decent weapon, it shares much in common with the M14 and G3. It's long and heavy. The ammo is heavy too. Wait until you've marched 12 miles with an 80 pound ruck, a 10 pound rifle a hundred or so rouns of ammo."

While our back packs were 'only' about 40 to 60 lbs back in 1974, I agree with GunTech 100%.

And yes, as GT mentioned people can control it to the point that they can empty the mag without losing their grip on the rifle, but that's not my definition of controlling it on full auto.

When we went to the range for full auto practice with our FN FALs, I watched more than a few hundred guys in fascination struggle to control that beast. And even those 6' 4" 300lb farm boys couldn't put more than the first round or two through the target.

IMHO, controlling a rifle on full auto means putting at least 80% of the mag through the target at 25 meters. If you can't do that, then you're not controlling it.
 
If you're firing full auto, the increased ammunition capacity advantage is rather negated, wouldn't you say? There's a reason that most of the shooting schools teach semiautomatic fire almost exclusively, even to military students with select-fire weapons. Unless you are very skilled, fully automatic fire from a non-belt fed weapon is almost always a waste of ammunition.

I, personally, will carry my FAL anywhere in the world if allowed, using ball ammo or soft points, for any situation in which a rifle would be desireable. I don't care if NATO prefers 5.56mm weapons and I don't care if the US Army or the Israelis or Special Forces or anyone else uses my rifle of choice. When I was in the service I carried a weapon that was twice as heavy as my FAL carbine, the SAW, and at least once I somehow got to carry the radio along with that, in addition to my spare barrel and my ammo. (The PRC-77 was a heavy POS.)

Forunately, we were Mech, so most of our crap rode in the track. :cool:

It's also a poor platform for optics, or other ancilliary gear that is common in 21st century warfare.

Nonsense. You can scope a FAL and put rails on it just as well as anything else; a proper optics mount interferes with neither cleaning nor field stripping. It's also a very simple weapon, and can be completely disassembled (save removal of the barrel) with only a screwdriver and a punch. The barrel can be removed or installed/headspaced by an armorer with minimal training. It wasn't designed for optics, but neither was the M16 (which is an old design itself). Note that in order to properly accomodate optics, they had to remove the rear sight assembly on the M16 and machine a rail mount; a larger modification I'd say than replacing the dust cover with a scope mount. Both work, however. The British were using Trilux scopes on their L1A1s decades before we Americans even considered issuing the average infantryman an optic.

The FAL is forged steel, yes, but the M16 is forged aluminum. Forging of anything is more expensive than sheet metal stamping, like the AK or AR-18. The new rage in simplifying mass production is to make things out of plastic. Plastic is light, cheap, easy to mold, and impervious to the weather. It does tend to melt sometimes, as I've heard in some reports about the G36, so you can't go overboard with it. :D

But that's all beside the point. Let's not turn this into a 5.56 vs 7.62 thread that just veers off topic, okay? No modern army has ever won or lost a battle because of the caliber of their rifles.
 
By the way Tony, do you always go shooting in suit?

I don't often get the chance to go shooting at all...but I happened to be at a conference which included a range demonstration and they asked for volunteers ;)
 
"1903 to 1957(03A4s in early Viet Nam)"

A technicality, but the 1903 ceased being a general issue small arm in its current guise (1906) 35 years or so of service (and even then it was not the most issued weapon in any war in which it served). No nation has ever issued snipers a general-issue weapons (the closest to that were the Soviets) and the 1903, while the "official rifle", was always second place when our soldiers went into combat, second to both the M1917 and the M1.

In any case, the AR frame will most certainly take the longest-serving service rifle prize, regardless of the measure, in the breach-loading realm. Of course, if you want to count all US martial arms, there were still US troops issued with smooth-bore flint-locks by the Civil War. That gives it a 65 year service life.

As to the British martial arms, I defer to the far more knowledgeable on this forum for that one.


Ash
 
Nolo, I've fired a full auto FN and several other full autos 7.62x51mm. Yes, you can shoo them. No, you cannot hit s**t after the first round. Extensive test were done of the M14 and the FAL using auto fire in the 1960s. They all concluded that full auto from a full power rifle was useless. Soldiers were unable to put more than a single round on a man silhouette at 50 yards in full ato. Most were unable to put more than one hot at 25 yards. Hence no M15 production.

My experience with select fire StG-58s has been that from the prone, using the bipod, I can usually score multiple hits at 100 meters (though still with a lot of wasted rounds). Any other position, even prone without the bipod, and its a lot of noise after the first round.

With the bipod you've just got a very poor man's LMG or BAR that gets really hot really fast running a fast string of 20 round mags through it.

IMO, the FAL is serious overkill for the 7x46mm. Why build a rifle bigger and heavier than it needs to be? Brazil has their 223 FAL as a cost saving measure.

I agree -- but a conversion of a FAL would be something feasible from a qualified gunsmith (assuming quantities of 7x46 ammo or brass we available). Much as I'd like to see something entirely new in 7x46 (and assorted other calibers), I'm not holding my breath -- even if such is in the works, I don't expect to see it before I hit the retirement mark, militarily speaking.
 
Horse soldier, IRC 7x46 ises a case head size of 0.45x - the same as th4 M43. That means a new bolt and extractoer for the FAL, so it's not a trivial conversion. Is anyone actually making their own FAL bolts? AFAIK, makers are still building from Milsurp parts except receiver and a few other 922r compliant parts. That why the can keep the cost down. If you had to make an FAL from scratch, it would not be an inexpensive proposition.
 
I am just bitter I can't own an L85a2 to go with my collection of the p1853 Enfield, various Lee Enfields and my L1a1. Its really making a damper in the collection. I do need to add a Lee Metford though, but damnit I want an L85.
You know, I cannot help but think that if the design had met with a little more success, someone might have tooled up to produce a copy here in the US. However, there's not a huge market for an oddball British rifle with a well-earned reputation for not working very well.

The revised versions might work just fine, but not be in service long enough to erase the stigma.

Mike
 
Is anyone actually making their own FAL bolts? AFAIK, makers are still building from Milsurp parts except receiver and a few other 922r compliant parts. That why the can keep the cost down. If you had to make an FAL from scratch, it would not be an inexpensive proposition.

Why would it cost more to machine a FAL bolt than an AR-15 bolt? DSA rifles are all US made, with the exception of some misc. small parts (pins and screws) I think. Their price is about on par with an M1A from Springfield or an AR-10 from Armalite.

The reason the M16 family is relatively inexpensive to the American consumer isn't because of the amount of machine work involved. It's becuse there are dozens of subcontractors making various parts and quite a few primary contractors making the weapons themselves, and there's a lot of competition on the market. If there was only one company making the AR-15, without the infrastructure of that family of weapons being used by the DoD, it'd cost just as much as any FAL, M1A, XCR, or other unique rifle.
 
I was in the british army when we switched from SLR (fn) to the SA80. to start with it seemed ok, it was light and accurate and easy to shoot. But then i took one to West Belfast- it was awful. bits of it broke off, it was poorly designed, the magazine fell out all the time. it stopped all the time. It was crap. My drill sgt in training fought on Tumbledown with the scots guards, he used M16 as he was from a special unit. The rifle was accurate and reliable BUT when you are fighting for ground with rifle and bayonnet you need the enemy to die with the first shot. Enemies filled with adrenalin will still fight and kill your mates even though they have 5.56 holes in them. This was a factor not considered by the men in suits who decided to buy the SA80.

I genuinely believe that the british army bought the SA80 becuase royal ordinance had empty order books and was about to be sold to the private sector.

I think that the British army should stay with the same ammo as the US that .280 rd maybe. but go for a weapon with proven reliability and robustness. Damn the politicians.

The FN rifle was great i would have swapped back in the blink of an eye, forget it was heavy and you carried less rounds, when you bought it to your shoulder and pulled the trigger you knew it would fire and you knew the other guy would be down.

steve
 
When was the last time our soldiers were given the option of Automatic fire in their service weapons, anyway? Pretty poor excuse for disliking the idea of a larger rifle for a service weapon. I enjoy the FAL platform, but I do tend to agree that the 5.56mm round does plenty at modern ranges.

However, those 110 grain projectiles look really fun in the gel.
 
The British have traditionally been as much, if not more so, advocates of the Cult of the Rifleman as we Americans. L85 (for infanteers and such) was sporting x4 power scopes back when we thought the M16A2 with easy-adjust windage iron sights was new-fangled.
 
The British have traditionally been as much, if not more so, advocates of the Cult of the Rifleman as we Americans

Then those who advocate a new rifle for the Brits that use a bigger round are correct. No use having 223 if you won't use it for what it was designed for, right? It's either salvo approach or not. You can't have an in between. But since NATO standardization is in the way, that discussion is pointless.

Going back on the replacement of the L85, HK and FN are top contenders.

However, I'm interested in whether the rifle will be of conventional design or bullpup design. I'm pretty sure they'd rather go with a bullpup but with the G36 being a possibility, I'm paying close attention.
 
Why would it cost more to machine a FAL bolt than an AR-15 bolt? DSA rifles are all US made, with the exception of some misc. small parts (pins and screws) I think. Their price is about on par with an M1A from Springfield or an AR-10 from Armalite.

According to my source, DSA uses a high part count of imported parts. If that is changed, I'd like to know.

I do know that the FAL receiver requite more machine cuts that the AR and uses a timed thread, which is a pain. The M1A has fewer and fewer GI parts, but they've had decades to make the change over from surplus. They are still using some surplus military parts, believe it or not.

No to worry. There is an absolutely huge supply of FAL parts available, so FAL are likely to remains relatively inexpensive.

All that being said, you have to be a gun maker to really appreciate all the design features Stoner and his team worked in to make the gun relatively simple. The main expensive feature is the forged aluminum receiver. Internal parts are cast. Barrels don't have to be timed and are easy to change.

Just about anyone can put together and AR and have it work. Building and M1A or FAL is quite a bit more difficult. Making one from scratch is even harder. How many companies are making FALs?
 
The British have traditionally been as much, if not more so, advocates of the Cult of the Rifleman as we Americans.

I'm not sure I buy that. Looking at the developent of the first NATO rifle, the British clearly understood the limited range concept, and puched for the 280 and similar mid-range rounds. It was the Americans that insisted that the new round had to have the same power and range of the 30-06.

"The Great Rifle Controversy" by Ezell is wonderfully illustrative of this, as is the Collector Grade publication on the FAL rifle.
 
I'm not sure I buy that. Looking at the developent of the first NATO rifle, the British clearly understood the limited range concept, and puched for the 280 and similar mid-range rounds. It was the Americans that insisted that the new round had to have the same power and range of the 30-06.

Don't look at the British 280 and 280/30 rounds compared to 308 (150 grains @ 2750 fps), which was just 30-06 Lite and a sweeping refusal to innovate at all. Look at .280 (140 grains @ 2530 fps) compared to 7.62x39 M43 (123 grains @ 2330) or 7.92 Kurz (125 grain @ 2250 fps). Notice that it is nowhere near the step down in velocity and power as those two rounds.

To me it looks like a logical acknowledgement that 30-06, 303 and the like were way overpowered, but that the infantry still needed a proper rifle round able to reach out to "proper" rifle range (however impractical that requirement really was). Wikipedia (admittedly a dodgy source) notes: "Long range performance actually surpassed that of the .303, and shooters reported that it was much more comfortable to fire with the reduced recoil and reduced blast," in their entry for the 280 round, and claim a 700+ meter accurate fire range in the write up on the EM-2. Compared to its contemporary assault rifle cartridges, as well as the rounds that appeared a decade or two later, it could just as easily be regarded as a rational rear-guard effort (as opposed to 7.62x51, an irrational rear guard attempt) by the aimed rifle fire crowd as an assault rifle round

For that matter, it's even a bit burlier than the preferred round for the Garand, 276 Pedersen, whose performance specs were decided on back in the late 20s and early 30s, before the WW2-era US Army Ordnance types got obstinate about refusing to downgrade anything below 30-06 performance.

And, I don't know, maybe I'm being a bit anecdotal, but the Brit military types I've worked with or met along the way very much consider the ability to deliver accurate aimed rifle fire to be a point of pride (moreso even than US marines).

That said, I'd think the British adoption of the x4 power SUIT sight for the L1A1 and then SUSAT for the L85 back when you'd be hard pressed to even find SOF units in the US using magnified optics for non-sniping applications says something about their doctrine and concept for the infantry rifle, even in assault rifle format.

Then those who advocate a new rifle for the Brits that use a bigger round are correct. No use having 223 if you won't use it for what it was designed for, right? It's either salvo approach or not. You can't have an in between.

Actually, I don't see why you can't. We use ACOGs with 5.56mm widely, and the combination puts bad guys in the ground. We don't train to do much spraying of bursts at targets as SALVO envisioned, but the fact that I can carry anywhere from twice to four times as much 5.56mm ammo as 7.62x51 for mass and bulk still means a whole lot (even for mounted ops where you're not schlepping it over hill and dale).
 
No prob.

It's pretty amazine when you consider that the UK has no domestic military small arms manufacturing capability.

Prior to the sale of HK by BAE, I would have said they had the inside track. I will be curious to see if the UK wants to remain with the L85, or go to something different. Changing rifles will involve a whole set of hidden costs - training troops, training armorers, spare parts, etc.

It will also be interesting to see if the UK takes to heart any 'lessons learned' in Iraq.

In some ways, the L85 mirrors the experience with the M16. Early troubles, but now a reliable, proven combat weapon. It jumping to yet another new rifle really the best idea? In the long run, it might be easier and cheaper to contract out the manufacture of new L85s. I'm sure there are several companies that would be willing. However, it looks like the troops still have complaints with the current 'upgraded' rifles.
 
the new L85's have been extensively reworked by H&K. Apparently it is far better now. i bet we stick with it for years and years
 
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