Tony Williams
Member
Thanks for that, I'd enoy it. But air travel has become a refined sort of hell these days - especially for non-USians trying to get past US immigration/security...
Replacement for the L85?
- Thread starter Nightcrawler
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Thanks for that, I'd enoy it. But air travel has become a refined sort of hell these days - especially for non-USians trying to get past US immigration/security...
Nightcrawler
Member
Nonsense. Look shifty and mention a love of explosions, and they'll wave you through with a smile. Now, if you're a grandparent and/or a Medal of Honor winner, yeah, you're going to get strip-searched.
Johnny Guest
Moderator In Memoriam
As off topic as the FAL stuff - -
From the original post:
About the only substitute that would really make sense is the Glock series. I'm not a big supporter of the Glock system, but it IS simple to use, lightweight, and VERY easy to procure.
Johnny
From the original post:
Yessir. Replace 'em with MORE Hi-Powers. It appears that the issue pistol in British service is even of less importance than in the US military. Why change from a proven weapon, with support, training, and peripherals already in general issue?
About the only substitute that would really make sense is the Glock series. I'm not a big supporter of the Glock system, but it IS simple to use, lightweight, and VERY easy to procure.
Johnny
As an update on the issue pistol the P226 Sig-Sauer Pistol (L105A1) is in limited'ish use as well.
Good pistol although if I was still a puddle jumper I'd try and be sneaky and as the armourer to order an official NATO pistol, serial NSN 1005-16-000-8619, the lovely CZ P-01.
What can I say, every one of my RSM's told me I'd go far or hang long....
Good pistol although if I was still a puddle jumper I'd try and be sneaky and as the armourer to order an official NATO pistol, serial NSN 1005-16-000-8619, the lovely CZ P-01.
What can I say, every one of my RSM's told me I'd go far or hang long....
Fosbery
Member
We were fitting L1A1s with the SUIT 4x scope a good few years before we introduced the SA80 with the SUSAT scope.
Having used both the L1A1 and the SA80 I would say the SA80 is a superb weapon, better than almost any other small-caliber infantry arm in the world, but that the L1A1 is essentially the better gun.
If you gave it a lightweight folding stock, cut the barrel down to 18" and gave it a flat-top reciever with an ACOG it would be lovely. Add to that a 25 round magazine instead of a 20 (30 is a bit big in my opinion) and a quick-attach supressor carried in a frog for CQB it would be even better. If we're really going for dream battle rifle, rechamber it in 6.8mm SPC or 6.5mm Grendel and give it a full 30 round magazine.
The MoD have looked at a number of weapons, comparing them to the SA80, including:
Steyr AUG
Diemaco C7/8 etc
FN F2000
SIG 55x
HK G36
AK74
Since only the SIG and the Steyr equalled or exceeded the SA80, I doubt we'll see any of those adopted - they're either inferior or offer little or no gain. I think it's possible but unlikely that we will see a return to a alrge caliber like .308. British army doctrine tends to involve rapid but accurate firing and a far greater use of full-auto than I have seen in almost any other western military. If you see footage of soldiers fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, they are very often firing bursts of full-auto fire and hitting targets hundred of yards away - with a heavy weapon like the SA80 and a low-power cartridge like the 5.56, it's very effective.
On the other hand, soldiers in Afghanistan are shunning the SA80 in favour of machineguns and sniper rifles as it lacks the range or firepower to be effective in the vast open spaces of Afghanistan. whilst those in Iraq favour the rifle for its small size and easy portability, especially in vehicles. I dare say that any consultation will find troops in Iraq asking for "more of the same, but ambidextrous" whilst those in Afghanistan ask for a big bore rifle with a bipod and carry handle.
I know it's not a military arm, but I do like the look of the new Kel Tec rifle. It's bullpup which the MoD will like, it's .308 so those in Afghanistan will like it, it's ambidextrous and compact so those in Iraq will like it, and it can easily take optics which will please everyone. If they made a military spec version with a supressor for CQB, chambered it in 6.5/6.8 with a 30 round mag and put an ACOG on it, it really would be my choice*.
*This only on what I've heard and seen, I've never used one.
Oh and one last thing: there are a couple of UK arms manufacturers besides the small crop of high quality rifle and shotgun makers. Parker Hale are/were making a PDW (along with their civillian weapons). I forget but I think it was along the lines of a machinepistol with a folding stock in 10mm Auto. Accuracy International make the AW rifles obviously and there's also a company who make FN MAGs and Browning .50s under lisence, and (of all things) an MP5 in .308
On pistols:
Most issued are Browning HPs of WW2 vintage (or soon after). There's also some SIG P226s but they're mostly for special forces (20 round mag for the SAS
). The RAF still have some Walther PPKs in use! Pistols are very rarely issued in the army though. The RAF issue them regularly, but Army Air Corps tend not to as far as I know, though some helo pilots kick up a fuss and nab one. High ranking officers carry them mostly for show, and military police have them most of the time. Squaddies never get them basically. Bootnecks get them for boarding operations sometimes.
Mannlicher
Member
England as a long, long history of firearms manufacture and development. I am sure if they so desired, they could design and build a battle rifle at home.
Tony Williams
Member
Building accurate bolt-action target/sniper rifles is one thing - it's almost a craft industry, with the skill going into workmanship. Designing and making an assault rifle which will function reliably for many years despite the rough treatment and appalling conditions of military service (mud, sand, sea water, a huge range of temperatures, variable ammunition) is a very different matter. It is something in which expertise has to be built up over decades of "trial and error" in designing and making such guns. Even the most experienced designers, like HK, have to modify their guns in the light of realistic testing (the HK 416 has seen a number of mods since being anounced). The UK has no such designers, no such basis of experience. The last time we tried to design a rifle from scratch, we got the L85A1 
I think that the HK 416 and FN SCAR (or variants on them) are likely to be the top two candidates (sadly IMO, since I would prefer a bullpup - I hope they look at the F2000 and the Tavor as well). Both are of course available in 7.62mm variants (HK 417, SCAR Heavy) as well as 5.56mm.
The Steyr AUG does not have a good rep in Australian service so I can't see that being seriously considered. It's rugged and easy to use, but unreliable in poor condtions.
I think that the HK 416 and FN SCAR (or variants on them) are likely to be the top two candidates (sadly IMO, since I would prefer a bullpup - I hope they look at the F2000 and the Tavor as well). Both are of course available in 7.62mm variants (HK 417, SCAR Heavy) as well as 5.56mm.
The Steyr AUG does not have a good rep in Australian service so I can't see that being seriously considered. It's rugged and easy to use, but unreliable in poor condtions.
Nightcrawler
Member
I think the AUG problems have, honestly, mostly been with Australia's domestically produced variant (the F1, I think it's called?).
The Brits have been hankerin' for a bullpup since the end of the Second World War. I, personally, would like to see them adopt one with a 20" barrel (with a shorty carbine version for those that need an ultra-compact), ambi-friendly rifle in 6.8mm. Make it semi-auto and full auto with a very low cyclic (like 500rpm) for controlability, and add an updated version of their 4x battle optic. That'd be very close in spirit to what they were trying to accomplish with the EM-2 rifle way back when.
Realistically, though, they'll most likely keep the L85s for a few years then buy G36s. It's sad that the British arms industry went under like that. So much innovation. The L1A1 had a battle scope and folding back-up iron sights decades before GG&G, ARMS, Trijicon, and Yankee Hill came into being. (Both ideas were pioneered on the EM-2 prototype.) The Bren Gun was the best automatic rifle of the 2nd World War (admittedly, it wasn't entirely a domestic design).
Now? Nothing left, it seems. What a shame.
The Brits have been hankerin' for a bullpup since the end of the Second World War. I, personally, would like to see them adopt one with a 20" barrel (with a shorty carbine version for those that need an ultra-compact), ambi-friendly rifle in 6.8mm. Make it semi-auto and full auto with a very low cyclic (like 500rpm) for controlability, and add an updated version of their 4x battle optic. That'd be very close in spirit to what they were trying to accomplish with the EM-2 rifle way back when.
Realistically, though, they'll most likely keep the L85s for a few years then buy G36s. It's sad that the British arms industry went under like that. So much innovation. The L1A1 had a battle scope and folding back-up iron sights decades before GG&G, ARMS, Trijicon, and Yankee Hill came into being. (Both ideas were pioneered on the EM-2 prototype.) The Bren Gun was the best automatic rifle of the 2nd World War (admittedly, it wasn't entirely a domestic design).
Now? Nothing left, it seems. What a shame.
The British Military arn't going to replace the SA80 for a very long time. HK changed the earth to fix the A1 and now the A2 works like a dream. It's hard to believe but it is a fantastic infantry rifle now.
The MoD is fighting two wars on a shoestring budget, while trying to buy Eyrofighter, JSF and two new aircraft carriers. New IW's are WAY down the list right now.
A mate did go to a FIST (sounds a bit rude doesn't it) demmo last week. Future Infantry Soldier Technoledgy, and the FIST version of the 80 looks awfull. Changeable barrels, springs, rods, gas parts and working parts. It can change from being beltfed to mag fed and back, in the field. Camera and eye screen for shooting round corners. All this and it's going to be lighter than an M4.
As you guys have said, we have no small arms maufacturing base so were its going to come from, who knows.
The MoD is fighting two wars on a shoestring budget, while trying to buy Eyrofighter, JSF and two new aircraft carriers. New IW's are WAY down the list right now.
A mate did go to a FIST (sounds a bit rude doesn't it) demmo last week. Future Infantry Soldier Technoledgy, and the FIST version of the 80 looks awfull. Changeable barrels, springs, rods, gas parts and working parts. It can change from being beltfed to mag fed and back, in the field. Camera and eye screen for shooting round corners. All this and it's going to be lighter than an M4.
As you guys have said, we have no small arms maufacturing base so were its going to come from, who knows.
woodybrighton
member
The SLR was a great rifle and fun for range work but a pig for getting in and out of things.
bullpups great for that give you a full size rifle in the same sort of size package as an m4 make it ambidextrous and your onto a winner.
5.56 if you hit somebody with it there not going to be playing anymore and with 30 rounds you've got more chance of a hit than 20 rounds
nobody in the uk forces are whining that people hit with 5.56 are not going down.
in Afghanistan its either cgb or long range at long range your use support weapons and or sniper rifles.
ideal rifle goes bang does'nt break ands accurate out to 3 to 400 metres ambidextrous would be nice
if a bull pup feel uncomfortable to target shooters tough there not who its ment for
its not like new recruits will have much experiance of fire arms any way
bullpups great for that give you a full size rifle in the same sort of size package as an m4 make it ambidextrous and your onto a winner.
5.56 if you hit somebody with it there not going to be playing anymore and with 30 rounds you've got more chance of a hit than 20 rounds
nobody in the uk forces are whining that people hit with 5.56 are not going down.
in Afghanistan its either cgb or long range at long range your use support weapons and or sniper rifles.
ideal rifle goes bang does'nt break ands accurate out to 3 to 400 metres ambidextrous would be nice
if a bull pup feel uncomfortable to target shooters tough there not who its ment for
its not like new recruits will have much experiance of fire arms any way
otomik
Member
Racal Electronics was bought out by Thales, Thales also bought Australian Defense Industries. If an electronics company like Minebea can make a pistol and smg for Japan it seems plausible that there is some capacity with Austeyr based designs. perhaps CNC machining is more versatile than earlier methods?
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