Biggest cartridge flops ...

Agsalaska · Apr 25, 2014

I think we need to define the term "flop". A flop is a cartridge that NEVER caught on. The 22 WRF is not a flop; it was very popular once but was replaced by the 22 Magnum. The 30 Carbine is certainly not a flop; it's extremely popular, sells millions of rounds each year despite having only one main platform (in addition to the Marlin 62 lever action).

The 9mm Federal, the 256 Winchester, the 22 Jet, now those were flops.

I agree. Flops NEVER caught on. Hard to say the 45Gap was a total flop when thousands of LEOs carry it every day. Same with the 30 carbine. Tens of millions of it was manufactured and it still sells.

On the other hand, and I am about to contradict myself, onother way to look at it is loss of investment. In this light the 45GAP may be a flop when you factor in the R&D, machining, and marketing costs Glock put into that round. The same could be said for the 327 Federal and possibily the .357Sig although the jury is probably still out on tboth of those. But Winchester had to have lost their ass on the WSSM lines.

Two others that I have guns chambered for are the .375Winchester and .222 Rem Mag. Two very capable rounds that went nowhere. Bad timing and redundancy hurt the .375 and losing out on government tests killed the .222Mag.

In the end, effective marketing delivering a perceived advantage is probably more important than providing an actual improvement.

Good thread.

HoosierQ · Apr 25, 2014

rcmodel said:
Oh, not even close to a flop!
It was a VERY popular round 50-100 years ago.

It was the .22 WRM of the day!

There are a gazillion Winchester 1890 .22 WRF pumps still running fine today.
Remington's .22 Special counterpart was the same cartridge with a RN bullet.

It was never a flop.
Just getting obsolete today as the .22 WMR replaced it in 1959 and spelled the end of new guns chambered for it.

Thank goodness CCI and Winchester still makes occasional runs of ammo for them!

That you can also shoot them in .22 Mags when full power isn't needed is only a bonus!

rc

Fascinating. Back in the 50s and 60s, we probably shot as many WCFs and WMRs out of our Savage. I am happy to stand corrected on that one.

As to the .30 carbine, I didn't know what to say about that one. I am struck that you can get an AR-15/10 upper in .243, .260...but I am not aware of one in .30 carbine. Of course there are millions of fantastic guns that shoot .30 carbine.

I put mine out there and I learned something!

natman · Apr 25, 2014

HoosierQ said:
As to the .30 carbine, I didn't know what to say about that one. I am struck that you can get an AR-15/10 upper in .243, .260...but I am not aware of one in .30 carbine. Of course there are millions of fantastic guns that shoot .30 carbine./QUOTE]

You can't get an AR-15 upper in 30-30 either, but it's certainly not a flop!

Ed Ames · Apr 25, 2014

I am struck that you can get an AR-15/10 upper in .243, .260...but I am not aware of one in .30 carbine.

Olympic Arms sold them. I don't know why anyone would buy one unless they were sitting on a huge pile of .30 ammo, given that a m1 carbine was cheaper at the time.

HoosierQ · Apr 25, 2014

natman said:
HoosierQ said:

As to the .30 carbine, I didn't know what to say about that one. I am struck that you can get an AR-15/10 upper in .243, .260...but I am not aware of one in .30 carbine. Of course there are millions of fantastic guns that shoot .30 carbine./QUOTE]

You can't get an AR-15 upper in 30-30 either, but it's certainly not a flop!

Click to expand...

Wow. I created a bit of a controversy. Not intended. The M1 Carbine is one of my favorite guns ever. I had a knock off (Universal) that I liked well enough but it didn't work terribly well and I needed money so I sold it. I have on my short list getting the real deal. So here my comments were a victim of the lack of a definition of "flop". I think we can safely say that the definition of flop DOES NOT include a cartridge that was manufactured in enormous numbers and for which millions of guns were built, regardless of the level of diversity of platforms.

I formally withdraw both .22WRF and .30 Carbine from consideration here...and do so gladly!

How about 7.93x33? Anybody going for that one?

Larry Ashcraft · Apr 25, 2014

All the Ackleys

The Ackleys are all wildcats, and some of them are still popular. The round that benefits the most from AI is the 22-250, because of the excessive case taper of the original round. You get higher velocity, better accuracy, and longer barrel life.

I have a .270 AI that pretty much matches the ballistics of the .270 Weatherby. Also, the .223 AI is popular around here as a coyote cartridge in AR-15s.

DadOfThree · Apr 25, 2014

Can anyone think of a bigger flop than the 13mm Gyrojet? I have one. The pistol not the ammo!

oneounceload · Apr 25, 2014

9x23 Winchester

Add to that the 9X21 and the 356TSW; although all were popular for trying to make major, and the 9x21 and 9X23 are still doing OK in countries where 9X19 is banned for civilian use

HisStigness · Apr 25, 2014

oneounceload said:
Add to that the 9X21 and the 356TSW; although all were popular for trying to make major, and the 9x21 and 9X23 are still doing OK in countries where 9X19 is banned for civilian use

I think the Israelis would disagree that the 9x21 IMI was a flop.

tekarra · Apr 25, 2014

I remember the Norma Magnums and the Shultz and Larsen as well. Unsure of how they fared in Europe and may have flopped here, in some part, due to lack of factory support.

oneounceload · Apr 25, 2014

I think the Israelis would disagree that the 9x21 IMI was a flop.

Which is why I said:

and the 9x21 and 9X23 are still doing OK in countries where 9X19 is banned for civilian use

It is very popular in certain locales, but not here

HisStigness · Apr 25, 2014

oneounceload said:
Which is why I said:

It is very popular in certain locales, but not here

We can't say ponchos were a major failure just because nobody wears them here.

sonick808 · Apr 25, 2014

I remember following the life cycle of the .327 Federal Magnum. Man, when the hype was in on that cartridge, it was a supermega ultra rockstar. Still seems like a neat cartridge to me. As a reloader, odd cartridges are fun

How about the .444 Marlin ? Not sure if it flopped but I don't see it much

JRH6856 · Apr 25, 2014

How about the .444 Marlin ? Not sure if it flopped but I don't see it much

But you have to be looking at big bore lever guns to see it at all. That is a niche market.

armedwalleye · Apr 25, 2014

my votes

That whole "short mag" thing.
.327
The current 5Seven
45 GAP (a solution is search of a problem)
Herter's .401 Powermag (but that was George Herter...)
22TCM (why?)
and ready for the flames....Weatherby.

T.R. · Apr 25, 2014

Winchester introduced their big bore model 94 many years ago chambered for a trio of hard hitting woods cartridges.
- 375 Winchester
- 307 Winchester
- 356 Winchester

Yet all three languished in sales and eventually were dropped from production. Of these, the 356 was likely the best but it too suffered from low sales. This has always been a mystery to me because it has what it takes to down truly large game animals with power to spare.

TR

David4516 · Apr 25, 2014

I've seen some good rounds listed here as "flops".

I'm a big fan of .280 Remington, it's a great cartridge. Does almost everything that 7mm Mag does, but with less powder and recoil. I must say that the name change to 7mm Express was a bad idea, but other than that I can only say good things about the .280

.30 Carbine is not a flop IMHO. I might be a bit bias though, I learned how to shoot as a kid my my Dad's old M1 carbine...

9mm Largo is a good round, I reload for it. I have an old Star pistol (looks like a 1911 without a grip safety) and would one day like to get an Astra.

Two that I have not shot but would be interested in are 10mm and .327 Mag

If I had to pick flops, I'd go with .45 GAP and all the short Winchester rounds...

kefefs · Apr 25, 2014

.41 AE and 9mm AE.

.41 AE was essentially a slightly more powerful .40 S&W that came out a few years before the .40, after the 10mm began to lose favour. Sadly S&W had better marketing and the .41 AE died out pretty quickly.

9mm AE was .41 AE necked down to 9mm... sound familiar?

It came out 6 years before the .357 SIG, but the timing was wrong and it died early on. By the time .357 SIG came out people were warming up to the idea and it eventually stuck.

.41 Magnum. Excellent cartridge killed off by poor naming (it's not a magnum cartridge) and media sensationalism and ignorance. The media attacked .41 Mag relentlessly for being "too powerful for police". LEOs who had it tried renaming it ".41 Police" but it didn't work. It's still around, but there are less new guns chambered in it every year. Only S&W makes their model 57 "Classic" in .41 Mag, and I believe Ruger still has an SA revolver or two in it. S&W dropped at least four other .41 Mag models in the last couple years and Taurus dropped all of theirs.

7mm Penna. Was interested in this (and the STI Nemesis) but it never even hit the shelves.

sonick808 · Apr 25, 2014

.22LR must be a major flop. I mean, you NEVER see it in stores

Krogen · Apr 25, 2014

How about the 9mm Winchester Magnum and 45 Winchester Magnum? They were a flash in the pan.

Someone mentioned the 350 Remington Magnum. It didn't see widespread acceptance, but that pains me as it's one of my favorites. Plenty of thump in a short action. Sure is hard to find brass, though.

barnbwt · Apr 25, 2014

Carbine and Largo are not flops. In the case of Carbine, Uncle Sam's intransigence saw to it having a fruitful run, and Largo was "only" a popular pistol round in Europe for about as long as 32acp (and that's not counting the half-dozen or so identical cartridges preceding it like 9x23 Steyr)

"The current 5Seven"
is now being made in larger quantities by more makers for more platforms made by more manufacturers than ever before in its (briefly-marketed) history.

"22TCM (why?)"
because non-5.7 owners convinced 9mm shooters that the ammo couldn't be reloaded. Oh, and because RIA made a pretty good platform to shoot the stubby little fireballs

"We can't say ponchos were a major failure just because nobody wears them here."
Although, I suppose you could the winners weren't wearing ponchos

. That's good enough for many, it seems.

HexHead · Apr 26, 2014

Not really a flop, but may be headed that was is .357 Sig. Sig has come out with it's own brand of ammo. They offer it in 9mm, .380, .40 S&W and .45 acp. Even Sig doesn't offer it in .357 Sig.

Nanook · Apr 26, 2014

scythefwd said:
as to the 327 federal.. its easier to find guns chambered in it than its little brother, 32 HR mag. Hell, I'm looking for brass for either so I can make my own because factory 32 mag, while listed on websites.. is almost as hard as finding a hens teeth.

Starline has .327 brass in stock as of last week. I bought 500 pieces, thanks to a tip from somebody on this forum.

.32 H&R brass was out of stock though.

I'd like a lever gun in .327. I'd buy that in a heartbeat.

Elkins45 · Apr 27, 2014

To just select the one that most stands out from my lifetime, I would have to nominate the 30 T/C. It was truly a round with no reason to exist: a cartridge on a 308 sized platform offering 308 performance with a 308 sized bullet. Why not just get a 308?

The 256 win mag also comes to mind, although at least people who own one will always be able to make ammo from 357 cases.

RustyShackelford · Apr 27, 2014

DARPA/DoD/US Army.....

In the 1970s/1980s/1990s, DARPA/DoD T&Eed the hot "new" flechette ammunition concept.

In short, combat troops would have slick polymer or alloy type battle rifles with thin, lightweight dart like projectiles. These rounds were very fast; 2800 fps to 3000 fps

. The rifles had 0 recoil too so marksmanship was easy to learn/maintain. A combat soldier could pack several hundred flechettes in special containers.
The "ohhs & ayyys" seemed to quit when the engineers & rifle designers couldn't field a proto-type that could work correctly.
The flechettes were lethal too & could punch thru most military type body armor but a single round wasn't enough in most R&Ds. :uhoh:

The DoD & the US Army let that weapons program slide off by the late 1990s. They elected to stay with the "superior" 5.56mm NATO load for the M4s/M-16s.

Biggest cartridge flops ...

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