Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Swing, Apr 24, 2014.
Most anything with "Action Express"...
41AE, 50AE, 9mm AE -
and then most anything with "Ackley Improved".
I'll take the .41 mag any day.
Stock up on brass now if you can still find any.
Understand that many cartridges that flop do so not because of a lack of merit, but because of other forces such as poor marketing, strong competition and / or poor support from the companies that originated them. The WSSMs suffered because Winchester introduced them in 2004 and promptly went bankrupt in 2006.
A flop? Certainly not!
Here's a brand new one for you: http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/76120/Winchester+Guns+534187183+Model+71+Lever+348+Winchester+24%22
375 RCM ?
They dropped out of sight so fast, there wasn't even a burp or splash.. I don't remember anyone mentioning them in this thread.. Or did I miss something?
I don't think you can call the 375 Ruger a flop, if that's what the 375 RCM is. My understanding is that it has been fairly well accepted because it gives H&H performance in a standard length rifle.
Flop is certainly relative in this case, because a 375 rifle was never destined to have a lot of use inside the CONUS.
We are. At least for the most part although some performance issues could be a contributing factor to the sales figure. If someone is posting based on performance they are missing the point of the thread.
Another important point for what has been a great thread.
I'm not sure how the 348 detractors are defining a "flop". How many different rifles have been chambered in it is irrelevant. Whether or not you can buy an AR15 in it is irrelevant. What matters is how long the cartridge is/was available. I've already said that the 348's success has been modest and I'll even go so far as to admit that the 348 has ridden on the coattails of its rifle, the superb Model 71.
Nevertheless, any cartridge that lasts for 79 years is NOT a flop, even if they stop making it tomorrow.
Absolutely. Lots of cartridges fail despite their merits. As much as it pains me to say it, the 260 Remington and the 338 Federal are teetering on the brink of flophood, and they are both excellent cartridges. The 6.5 Remington Magnum was way ahead of it's time, but it was a flop. Etc, etc, etc.
It's not enough to just be good, you have to be different enough to carve out a niche in a very crowded market.
Now some cartridges deserve to be flops. The 9mm Federal was the most ill conceived cartridge I can think of. It was a rimmed version of the 9mm Parabellum, offered in the Charter Arms Pit Bull revolver. The problem was that the exact same revolver was already offered in the more powerful, more versatile and wildly popular 357 Magnum and there was absolutely nothing the 9mm Federal could do that the 38 Special / 357 Magnum couldn't do better, easier and cheaper. Needless to say the 9mm Federal flopped so hard it bounced.
In the US.
If the target market was a country where civilian ownership of guns chambered for any sort of military ammo is forbidden (e.g. Mexico), a civilian-legal 9mm might have significant merit.
Another is the .360 Dan Wesson. This cartridge had the misfortune of being introduced as a factory load (it was a wildcat for a number of years and is almost identical to the old Winchester .351SL) just prior to someone buying the Dan Wesson rights and scrapping revolver production in favor of a producing a 1911 clone. The .414 SuperMag was also killed at the same time. Another problem with the .414 is that, unlike the .360 DW which is the .357 Maximum shortened to 1.415", there is no parent brass to make the .414 SM from.
I'm quite familiar with the forbidden military cartridge concept; I cited it in post #120 as a possible use for the 45 GAP. I suppose that limited use in Victory models qualifies 38 Special rounds as "military". If the ban included civilian use of police cartridges the 38 Special would certainly be banned.
Nevertheless, the foreign civilian market failed to keep the 9mm Federal from flopping big time.
A further qualification might be the use of Cartridge, Caliber .38, Ball Special, M41 by the USAF.
17 mach2 ? why a flop?
17 mach2 ? why a flop? That one I don't get, is the 17 mach2- It does what it really was designed to do, an ultra accurate flat shooting squirrel, rabbit, woodchuck, small game rifle without destroying meat. My t/c contender in 21 inch delivers less than 1 moa all the time and the shells don't cost 14 a box like the over-bloated 17 hmr. WHICH what in the world can you do with the 17 Wmr except destroy small game? it's way over rated as a coyote or predator gun- It's mathematically driven to fast for best accuracy - and every box of shells is better than 14 bucks, if 22 wmr is marginal for varmits and coyotes, a 17 hmr is better?--- and best I can tell the added velocity hype of the 17 hmr rained out the success of the 17 Mach2.- Just my thoughts, and I own a 22 wmr, and rarely use it because it is inaccurate, expensive to shoot, and destroys way to much meat in small game.
Again, saying a cartridge was a flop does not necessarily mean it's not a good, useful cartridge. Lots of flops were very good, useful cartridges. They just didn't catch on for one reason or another. In the 17 HM2's case it was overshadowed by the phenomenally successful 17 HMR.
As flops go the 17HM2 is a special case. On the one hand it's not technically a flop because Savage is still making guns and ammo is still available, at least in theory.
OTOH, it was probably the most over hyped cartridge in history and spectacularly failed to live up to sales expectations.
Anschutz tried it and dropped it. CZ tried it and dropped it. Marlin tried it and dropped it. Remington tried it and dropped it. Browning tried it and dropped it. Winchester tried it and dropped it. Ruger tried it and dropped it. Magnum Research tried it and dropped it. TC tried it and dropped it.
You get the idea. Take solace in the fact that one of these days 17 HM2 guns will be collector's items and everyone will want one then.
Indeed, great cartridge. But, the Maximum likely would have been an even more dismal failure, were it not for the IHMSA support. T/C and Dan Wesson guns chambered for the cartridge abounded at IHMSA.
I certainly wouldn't call the .30 Carbine a flop or obsolete. If the ammo was affordable it would still be popular.
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