Two pro-gun groups clash - who's right?

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Tirod said:
I will take the correction - because we are discussing OCT as a monolithic organization, when - as pointed out above - it's not them, it's a splinter group.

It gets complex fast. Until May 8, Open Carry Texas and Open Carry Texas - Tarrant County were part of the same group. Even after the split, people kind of go back and forth and the founder of OCT is still defending actions done by OCT-TC. And between the confusing names and mediocre journalism, it is hard to tell who is responsible for what. So some of the problem examples are from OCT, some are from OCT-TC, and some are from a half-dozen other spontaneously organized open carry groups.

There is another group called Lone Star Citizens Defense League that does open carry protests who apparently didn't sign on to the guidelines OCT and the other groups recommended - and based on the news it looks like OCT-TC is ignoring those guidelines as well.

The Open Carry movement in Texas is essentially a cat herd at this point.
 
ohbythebay said:
Over the top behavior does not help our cause. You want to open carry with a 1911 on the hip, great, should be no different than having a tool on your belt. But prancing around home depot and other places with an AR-15 ? What the point ? Scare people ? How does Joe customer distinguish between an open carry person doing that and a nut job killing everyone in the store? Wait for the sound of gunfire?
Exactly. You're never going to regain your rights by proving you're incapable of being responsible with the ones you still have.
 
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/nra-calls-open-carry-rallies-downright-weird-23968843

So, the NRA has spoken out against Open Carry Texas.

OCT is claiming they will speak out against the NRA.


So, the dividing begins.

I'm sure the Anti folks couldn't be happier, and it would seem we've done this to ourselves ?

Clearly illustrates what divisive behavior does to our cause, and how the actions of a few can have consequences for the many.

Two camps won't work. How do we come together on this?
I'm not going to tell others what to do, but unless i'm in bear woods with FA .454 on my belt I consider OC unrefined, crude and pointless.
 
So it really is about the type firearm then? interesting, you know the gun industry has invested a lot of money trying to convince the public that an AR is just a semi-auto.

There's a place and time for everything. I'd be worried if I saw someone enter Chipotles with a chainsaw... Inapproproate and antisocial behaviour is easy to identify.



Unless of course you have the power to discern what's in a man's heart just by looking at them.

It's not that hard:

Anyone carrying a rifle of any sort into a modern corporate eatery in a built up area has a screw loose.

The only questions is "what screw, and how loose?".

Back to Zebras versus Horses: I see a bearded pimply mall-ninja or two with AR-15's enter an eatery in a built up area and my first thought isn't "What a nice gesture by an intelligent RKBA activist", my first thought is "This is a nut. He can be a facebook-fame seeking urban commando, or he can be a mass murderer. In any event it's a serious potential threat that I am not going to ignore while I hope for the best. In the risk/benefit equation my continued presence here has virtually zero gain and real potential for serious risk. I'm not sticking around to find out. While I am gaining separation from this threat, I am in Condition Orange. If a muzzle swings towards me, I am in Condition Red".


Bottom line is that it's one of two things: Either a Harmless Nut or a Dangerous Nut. Gonna bet your life on which one it is by guessing?


I make my living dealing with things that can kill me in an instant, and I do not accept unneeded risks. Sticking around while others figure out "what screw is loose and how loose it is is" is not in keeping with my risk reduction plan. I'm going to be leaving as fast as I can, and taking my wallet with me.


Regarding the business standpoints:

The Business of America is Business. Corporate Americal has no political position, they have fiduciary responsibility. If I was running a business targeted by the nuts, I would ban open carry of firearms in a moment. I wouldn't even be polite about it. Those that choose to eat elsewhere are a VERY small minority in the country, no matter if they are a majority here. Rational managers will maximize profit and reduice risk. What do you think a rational decision would be?


Willie

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I'm not going to tell others what to do, but unless i'm in bear woods with FA .454 on my belt I consider OC unrefined, crude and pointless.

This sums it up for me, too: backwoods, on horseback, ranch, whatever it is in context. An AR-15 in a fast food restaurant just freaks people out and makes us all look bad.
 
Wall St Journal....

The Wall Street Journal(which is a subsidiary of Rupert Murdoch's media chain if I'm correct) had a article about the recent open carry protestors/fast food places.
I agree that to OC rifles or shotguns into a coffee or donut shop is a tad extreme. :rolleyes:
What purpose does that serve? To say you own guns? To say you want to protect yourself? To harass or intimidate someone? To show your disdain for elected officials or laws?
I don't get it. :rolleyes:
As noted, I do support open carry & Ive done it with a Smith and Wesson M&P .45acp pistol. Not a Stag Arms M4 or HK 7.62 sniper rifle. :mad:
 
I am completely against the "buffoonery", nicest word I can use, of these Open Carry Texas people. I am 100% for our freedoms and truly enjoy my freedom being in Kansas. As others have said, all these "buffoons" have done is hurt their cause, hurt the image of gun owners, become poster children "gun-nuts", and done a far better job of turning businesses unfriendly than the anti crowd could have ever dreamed. There are far better ways to achieve OC but they have chosen the wrong one. I am not against their end but I am completely against their means. I truly hope that whoever the leaders of the OCT can see the damage they are doing and fix it.
 
The open carry demonstrators make us all look like a bunch of crazed "gun nuts", not responsible law abiding gun owners.

I don't want my wife and son standing in line at Chipotle and have guys in there with AR15s slung around them. It's not necessary, and it just scares people into thinking that gun control IS necessary.
 
Guns, the law....

An important point that gets left out often is; the law.
;)
If rifles or shotguns are allowed under open carry statues or city ordinances then people can do it.
Id learn or know the local gun-use of force laws, first.
Emotions cloud judgement.
If you are in a OC community, be responsible & practical. Know what the gun laws are. If youtube yo-yos want to rant & plop around with ARs or M4s then either; leave or ignore them.

A co-worker(armed security) & I were discussing open carry & 2A protests. We both agree that these idiotic displays just irk non-gun owners & make these "pro 2A" advocates look like slobs who need girlfriends. :rolleyes:
 
RustyShackelford said:
An important point that gets left out often is; the law.

If rifles or shotguns are allowed under open carry statues or city ordinances then people can do it.
It's not necessarily that simple. Even if OC is permissible (or at least not prohibited by) law, the property owner still has a right to regulate conduct on his or her property.

ETA: . . . . . & just 'cause it might be legal doesn't make it appropriate.
 
Yeah, but that's how all the cool kids carry their rifles…ready to execute a takedown. Ready to light 'em up. In a moment's notice, BAM, just like that.

I'm going to assume that the use of "cool kids" is an example of sarcasm, because the only people who think this is "cool" are the idiots who do it...and maybe a few other idiots who also don't have, in my Dad's words, "the sense God gave a pissant".

Life is full of things we CAN do but SHOULDN'T do, and knowing the difference is a mark of wisdom and maturity that is supposed to accompany adulthood. There is nothing cool, wise, or mature about walking into any place of business with firearms displayed at the ready like this.


I don't think the type of firearm matters at all. Simply put it's not a normal occurrence in a modern day city.

Sorry I didn't include the rest of your comment above; it was good, but I wanted to address just this part.

We need to be careful about how we broadly label such things as "not a normal occurrence in a modern day city" in such a context, because when we make such sweeping generalizations we open the door to equating "abnormal" behavior with "illegal" or "not allowed" behavior. They should not be the same, especially in cases involving firearms because we're talking about the RKBA.

The RKBA is exactly that...a RIGHT. It should be OK for any person to keep and bear arms if they choosek, commensurate with the rights of other people. (Let's not delve off into the exceptions, such as convicted felons and such.)

In many places, ANY individual carrying ANY firearm in ANY fashion (concealed or otherwise) is not "normal"...and in many cases very difficult to legally do so. There are plenty of well discussed examples here in the states, like NYC, California, and such. And there are plenty of countries like the UK were "normal" became "law" resulting in people being disarmed by their own government.

Abnormal should raise eyebrows...it is, after all, out of the ordinary by definition. And it should be dealt with accordingly, with the appropriate level of attention. Abnormal to the point of dangerous behavior should likewise be dealt with accordingly, with the appropriate level of attention.

A couple guys come into a fast food joint with holstered handguns, either concealed or open carried. In many places, this would be "not normal". But it should be dealt with accordingly, at the appropriate level. This can take many forms, from no action taken at all to a manager asking them to leave, but should not require ANY government intervention because it's a legal right under the Second Amendment.

A couple guys come into a fast food joint with unholstered/unslung long guns would probably be at a rather more highly elevated level of "not normal". but this, too, should be dealt with accordingly, at the appropriate level slao without requiring ANY government intervention.

People who do not wish to comply with the requests of property owners and such are a problem...and THIS is when action is required by law enforcement.

LEO: "What's the problem?"

MANAGER: "I do not want this individual in my establishment carrying a rifle and he will not leave when I ask him to."

LEO: "Sir, you are to take your weapon and leave or I will arrest you for criminal trespassing. Do you understand?"

End of story.
 
When the first NRA-ILA article was written and posted on May 30, referring to "recent events in the Lone Star State", the most recent events were the series of "restaurant invasions" that prompted several national chains to ask patrons not to open carry in their indoor areas. But it was written with insufficient specificity and that allowed Mother Jones to hijack the story and connect it to a photo taken at an outdoor rally that happened the next day. The story and photo was picked up by other outlets and widely distributed. Many of these other outlets researched the photo and included that event as the type of demonstration being condemned. The result was to portray the NRA as criticizing or condemning the legal exercise of rights protected by both the First and Second amendments. Did Mother Jones intend to do this? I personally have no doubt of that. A radical, agenda driven, left-wing propaganda rag with an opportunity to make the NRA appear hypocritical? They jumped on it.
 
Well, Texans always have done things a little different. I'm sure OCT will figure out something. It looks like the NRA wants to distance itself from the org as fast as they can. In the Navy we used to call that damage control.
 
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There is no law against picking your nose at a nice restaurant while eating, but that does not mean it is the right thing to do.

In some states, there is no law against carrying a rifle slung over your shoulder and in a business place, but that does not mean it is the right thing to do.

We don't need laws against carrying rifles any more than we need laws against picking your nose. You can't legislate good manners.
 
coaltrain49 said:
Well, Texans always have done things a little different. I'm sure OCT will figure out something.

Yep.They did in 1836 at the Alamo .They did in 1845 when they decided to become part of the United States.

They did in 1861, when they joined the 10 other Confederate States. Texas has always had a mind of it's own. IMO, it's usually been right.:cool:
 
We don't need laws against carrying rifles any more than we need laws against picking your nose. You can't legislate good manners.

True, but accidentally discharging you nose in a public place is not quite the same as accidentally discharging a your rifle, and that seems to be the biggest fear among the neutrals and is pushed hard by the antis.
 
Texans tend to let others do as they please until they start making a spectacle of themselves and/or become a general nuisance. Then, a law is likely to get passed to stop it. And that is what concerns me. A person quietly carrying a rifle may slide by many of us, put people demonstrating while carrying rifles just might be annoying to too many, just because it attracts too much attention.
 
True, but accidentally discharging you nose in a public place is not quite the same as accidentally discharging a your rifle, and that seems to be the biggest fear among the neutrals and is pushed hard by the antis.

Unless, of course, one had the Spanish Flu in 1918.

Or the Asian Flu in 1957.

Or the Hong Kong Flu in 1968.

That's over 21 million dead between those three...18 million from the Spanish Flu alone.

;)
 
Texas has had an interesting history. If there was any state that was going to swim upstream it would be Texas. You can say what you want about this tomfoolery but I think they just got tired of the letting the corporate office handle things. I don't condone it, as a matter of fact, I think it's foolish, but then I don't have a dog in the fight. I've had the right to OC all my life and I'm an old retired guy.
 
There are times when you could/ there are times when you should!!
I believe their are times when open carry is acceptable. I don't think it is responsible to go to your local Chipotle/sonic/whatever restaurant with a rifle over your shoulder!!
I carry (CCW) in these places all the time. Sonic is a drive in, keep your butt in your car and no problem. Don't bring bad attention to yourself. The guys in the Chipotle restaurant only added fuel to the "demented gun owner" fire. Please don't be fuel for their fire!!
 
Funny that when so many in CA were unloaded open carry (UOC) of scary black rifles... a lot of people here were cheering them on.

People got scared... CA banned that too. Apparently not enough in CA remembered the results of the black panthers OC'ing in CA.

TX does it and this thread is overwhelmingly saying its not a good idea.



You know why the NRA has spoken out against it?


Maybe because the NRA finally accepts the fact that this tactic has repeatedly failed whether its done to a restaurant or a state. I have yet seen or heard of an example of it working.


Yelling "fire" in a movie theater is classic example of 'just because you can doesn't mean you should". Because some jack hole fool did it... the result was that the 1A was parsed down.
 
I'm going to assume that the use of "cool kids" is an example of sarcasm, because the only people who think this is "cool" are the idiots who do it...and maybe a few other idiots who also don't have, in my Dad's words, "the sense God gave a pissant".

Life is full of things we CAN do but SHOULDN'T do, and knowing the difference is a mark of wisdom and maturity that is supposed to accompany adulthood. There is nothing cool, wise, or mature about walking into any place of business with firearms displayed at the ready like this.


Yes, that part of my post was written as sarcasm. It's directed at how some of our fellow citizens look at the world and their misguided/imagined roles in it(Walter Mitty). There are those out there that seem to think they're operators and we're in a combat zone of sorts here. They go out and pose in the stances (port arms, low ready) they've seen on TV or the internet as if it gives any sort of validity to their cause.

As has been established here, many of them are nothing short of buffoons and blowhards. A few may actually be misguided.
 
I believe it doesn't help ANY OF US TO TURN THIS INTO SUCH A DECISIVE ISSUE! I THANK WE CAN ALL SEE IT WASN'T THE SMARTEST MOVE BY THESE CITIZENS! I AM VERY MUCH FOR O.C.! BUT WOULD NOT DO WHAT THESE CITIZENS DID! How ever you feel, I believe one thing we should agree on is, this issue IS NOT SOMETHING WE SHOULD BE WASTING OUR TIME ON! ARGUEING OVER THIS IS WHAT THE ANTI-GUN CROWD WANTS! US TO BE DIVIDED ON THIS ISSUE! LIKE I SAID BEFORE! "PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN GLASS HOUSE'S SHOULDN'T THROW STONES! " YOU FOKES ARE ALMOST SHOOTING BULLETS! BOTH SIDES HAVE LOST SIGHT OF THE REAL ISSUE! I WILL LET YOU GO BACK TO THIS POINTLESS ARGUEING DI-FI & FRIENDS WOULD LOVE THIS!
:cuss:
 
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