Guns not wanted in "family-friendly" Target

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This post snippet scares the crap out of me!
What does "reasonably armed" mean? Who gets to decide just what is "reasonable"? You?
You guys have already lost this battle. Your attacking the wrong group and frankly... That scares the crap out of me too!
Rather then "hide" your guns as not to upset the civilians, what else are you doing to ensure our Rights remain intact?
We shouldn't be fighting each other! It serves no purpose but to divide us!
You may not like open carry but that's no reason to attack me because I do!
People! Stop this infighting and channel this energy into getting carry, of ANY KIND, in EVERY STATE!
The complete disconnect with reality that the OCT people are showing should scare you. They are using every wrong tactic they can to try to accomplish something (if they really are trying to accomplish it)

The attitude that you have is "it doesn't matter what you do, I will support you because you have a gun". This absurd and frankly alarming. Just because someone owns a gun, doesn't mean I should support any foolish behavior they do.

They purposefully go to private property and force a business into making a political statement. This is what blows my mind about the level of stupidity involved. They are not going about their business normally in these stores. They are not just shopping. They are not carrying these long guns for self defense. They are trying to make a political statement in what, has until that point, been a impartial uninvolved business.

They are bringing a political issue into a private business. They are not shopping. There are a million different important issues in the world. If you owned a business and had an obligation to families that you employ. Would you want every political issue debated in the middle of your store. Would you give up your lively hood to make a stand FOR EVERY ISSUE IN THE WORLD? even ones you do not care about.

You better dang well be willing to do that if you want to post the stuff you do. Guns are the most important issue to you, me and 99% of the people here, but guess what it is not to Target and Chillis.

Would you risk you job to pick a side on EVERY ISSUE THAT CAME UP. That is what you expect of everyone else.

If open carry is important to you, be passionate about it and be vocal. Be involved. Do not be stupid. OCT is stupid. Very, very stupid

I was not aware that I would be labeled a gun nut for my belief in OC

you are not being labeled for your belief in OC. You are being labeled for your support of the Open Carry Texas crowd, which is a dangerous counter productive bunch that hurts people that actually care about OC
 
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You go ahead and bash the OC crowd... just let me know when you plan on helping the cause rather than attempting to belittle you fellow gun owners...
I am helping the cause. I help people along the road of obtaining and learning how to use firearms. I bring antis I come into contact with to places that exhibit responsible, helpful, and educated adults (and well trained youth) using all kinds of firearms safely. I help dispel notions and views (which are unfortunately popular in certain groups) that all gun owners are paranoid, delusionalist, compound members who are about to flip and kill indiscriminately at the slightest provocation by the government. I even open carry a handgun on occasion in a unalarming manner, and when asked about why, I give a answer that dispels fear and notions of radicalism. Now tell me how this crowd carrying long guns into public places is helping our cause.
 
You may disagree with me, but don't try to tell me that using the word reasonable is more endangering to our rights than radical, in-your-face, belligerent behavior that alienates all people who would otherwise be supportive of gun rights and responsible use of weapons for defense.


Oh boy! I vehemently disagree with you but you know what?
Your post shows that you obviously disagree with me too!
Oh well... On we trudge..
 
.223 actually *doesn't* overpenetrate. (that's what they are carrying, right?) That's one of its best features. 9mm, .45, heavy .38 Specials, .40, etc. (you know, the good CC rounds) overpenetrate.



Carry on.
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THIS^^^^^^^

Amen.
 
.223 actually *doesn't* overpenetrate. (that's what they are carrying, right?) That's one of its best features. 9mm, .45, heavy .38 Specials, .40, etc. (you know, the good CC rounds) overpenetrate.
sorry, wrong word. kindof. I mean a rifle caliber, especially the 7.62s and (rarely) 308s I have seen in this movement, along with 223, are going to go much farther, and through a lot more of the materials commonly found in public areas.
 
sorry, wrong word. kindof. I mean a rifle caliber, especially the 7.62s and (rarely) 308s I have seen in this movement, along with 223, are going to go much farther, and through a lot more of the materials commonly found in public areas.


Really no different than a CC load out.
I carry 9mm, .380, .40 cal and .45, all of which will go through standard building materials.
I know for a fact that a 9mm Golden Saber, 124+p goes through four standard walls.
And before the questions start, it was done, on a range with proper safety employed!

ETA: The round did not expand. The dry wall plugged the cavity and it was recovered in the "pit".
It was pristine and could probably have been reseated as if it was new!
 
I'm not one of those gun owners who are quick to dismiss a business because that business exercised their right to refuse people who OC or CC.

I do not OC in public places, but I do support it if done correctly. I conceal carry anywhere legally allowed.

Yes, I will still shop at Target and eat at Chili's and Chipotle's. And I will Carry Concealed while I'm there. And yes, I still go to Starbucks armed...

IMHO it is stupid to boycott a business just like that. It is their right to refuse anyone they don't want, not just gun owners. On the flipside, it is our right to not patronize them if you choose. But that doesn't mean I won't go to that business anymore. I still like to shop at Target, and I like to eat at Chipotle and Chilis. I also still go to movie theaters armed even if they have "No Guns Allowed" signs.

CONCEALED IS CONCEALED. As long as it bears no weight of the law (which in most places it doesn't) you can still carry there. It just like a gun show or a gun store with a 'no guns' allowed sign.

Such things are petty to me.
 
There are a couple of disjointed explanations given for the rifle carry actions, and they really need to be dealt with separately:

1) OCT uses carry of rifles as a protest to try to push changes to TX law that currently prohibits the open carry of HANDGUNS. They essentially say, "since we can't carry handguns openly, we HAVE to carry rifles openly instead ... wouldn't it make more sense to let us carry our handguns like we want?" (They've done the same thing, to less negative effect, with cap-and-ball antique revolvers.) So, to that end, the carry of rifles is a political protest/awareness demonstration to try to get the laws pertaining to handguns changed.

2) Some folks are doing this, or at least supporting these folks, with the idea that carrying rifles is "reasonable" and a rational answer to self-defense in public. A rifle is more powerful than a pistol and easier to make some kinds of shots with, so therefore isn't it better than a handgun for defense? And no one else should be able to tell me that carrying any gun I want isn't "reasonable."

Now there are problems with both tracks. Track one, which I see as OCT's actual avowed strategy, has the deficit of not really following a cause-and-effect narrative that makes a whole lot of sense. Alarming people by carrying big rifles around is probably not a great way to get lots of your average fellow citizens to call their legislators and push them to vote for your open-carry handguns bill. In fact, without a lot of explanation, that doesn't "read" very well to most folks. "You're carrying that rifle here in the underwear aisle ... WHY? So the legislature will make open-carrying HANDGUNS legal? Why would that ...make...any... Oh...ok...well, good luck with that then. :scrutiny:"

So there's a basic problem with this aspect of the movement hoping that Action "A" will produce Result "B" when it takes a huge leap of faith to see why one would lead to the other. And which requires ignoring all the negative fallout produced by Action "A."

Kind of like the guy who shot his lawnmower because it wasn't working right. Shooting it probably wasn't going to make it work better, and meanwhile he's hit by a bullet fragment and fined for discharging a firearm in the town limits. Action A didn't lead to Result B, and the negative consequences were worse than the problem he started with!

Now track 2 really has two fundamental problems. One of them is that it ISN'T why OCT is doing this stuff, so there's a basic disconnect between the explanation given by some and the reasons of the folks actually DOING it. The more profound is the basic misunderstanding or mistaken belief that a rifle is a rational choice for self-defense in public in the peacetime USA. Rifles are slower to get into action, VASTLY harder to use against an up-close and personal attacker such as one is likely to face in our cities and towns, and are awkward, cumbersome, and difficult to carry SAFELY during day-to-day life in social settings. Even the uninitiated understand innately that slinging up a carbine isn't the right choice for warding off muggers, rapists, robbers, vicious dogs, or any of the other threats common to our society. Folks who ARE in-the-know -- who actually DO carry rifles a lot -- are even more aware of how much they SUCK as a daily life accouterment. No soldier returning from a combat theater wants to lug his M-4 through the grocery store. Heck, he didn't want to have to carry it across the darned FOB once he got off patrol if he could help it! And the folks we HIRE to go armed in public (law enforcement) and to face down threats, stop the law-breaker, and deal with very violent people DON'T ... EVER ... carry rifles or shotguns around unless there is a known, present threat they have to deal with right now.

So that puts "paid" to the whole notion that anyone would or should think that carrying a rifle through Target is a good idea.
 
I don't see how any intelligent person would think that walking through a store filled with women and children with exposed assault or even hunting rifles is a good idea. There is no reason for this and I think it's the Bloombergs of the world that have orchestrated this nonsense.
 
Now track 2 really has two fundamental problems. One of them is that it ISN'T why OCT is doing this stuff, so there's a basic disconnect between the explanation given by some and the reasons of the folks actually DOING it. The more profound is the basic misunderstanding or mistaken belief that a rifle is a rational choice for self-defense in public in the peacetime USA. Rifles are slower to get into action, VASTLY harder to use against an up-close and personal attacker such as one is likely to face in our cities and towns, and are awkward, cumbersome, and difficult to carry SAFELY during day-to-day life in social settings. Even the uninitiated understand innately that slinging up a carbine isn't the right choice for warding off muggers, rapists, robbers, vicious dogs, or any of the other threats common to our society. Folks who ARE in-the-know -- who actually DO carry rifles a lot -- are even more aware of how much they SUCK as a daily life accouterment. No soldier returning from a combat theater wants to lug his M-4 through the grocery store. Heck, he didn't want to have to carry it across the darned FOB once he got off patrol if he could help it! And the folks we HIRE to go armed in public (law enforcement) and to face down threats, stop the law-breaker, and deal with very violent people DON'T ... EVER ... carry rifles or shotguns around unless there is a known, present threat they have to deal with right now
This says what I have been trying to say ( and I must admit to not doing the greatest job) very well indeed.
 
Well, unfortunately the pro-rifle-carry advocates tend to squirm back and forth between both rationalizations. If the carry-as-protest isn't making sense to someone, or is shown to be ineffective, just say it is the better self-defense tool and say you're offended that anyone would try to make you be "reasonable."

If someone points out that a rifle isn't a good choice for getting through your daily routine while being ready to defend yourself against common types of threat, call it a protest statement and say you're offended that anyone would try to limit your 1st and 2nd Amendment rights.

Point out that neither one really makes much sense and you're just an anti-gun jerk.
 
I don't see how any intelligent person would think that walking through a store filled with women and children with exposed assault or even hunting rifles is a good idea.


So far I have only seen one photo of an open carrier that is referenced as being in Target.
I have not read any stories in the news about groups of people with rifles continuously showing up at Target, or any other location for that matter.
You see, aside from Chiploltes(?) and the one image from Target, I have yet to see this occurring at any level to scare the public.
Believe it or not, MDA is trolling FaceBook looking for gun photos and using them as "proof" that "millions of people" are doing it all across the nation.

And one more thing that doesn't help is calling open carriers "less intelligent" than any other group of gun owners.
I thought we were all on the same side here? What's happened to "us" that we feel the need to disparage other gun owners because they do things different than you?

ETA: MDA, with its 400,000 signers is truly a drop in the bucket in a society of over 320 million people.
Also, how many of the signatures were legit? Who was in charge of this petition and can the results honestly be counted, especially coming from an ant-gun group?
I do not consider MDA to be a threat.
They will not get my guns and I sleep just fine at night.
 
i cannot hear it anymore... some OC folks are so incredibly dense and unable to even remotely understand the constitution.

there. is. NO. constitutional. right. to. carry. in. a. private. business

PERIOD

same goes for your 1st amendment rights and a lot of other constitutional rights :rolleyes:
 
Maybe one of these days the open carry freedom fighters will learn they are never going to win against any corporation big or small by walking into the store with a slung rifle and scaring half of the other customers out the door... Worked out great with starbucks... Well maybe we should try Target?? Nope, that didnt work... Whats next? What will be the next big chain to politely tell gun owners "we dont want your kind here.." And boycott? Do you think for an instant you are making a scratch in their revenue by staying away? Not even a drop in the ocean...

The anti's are just sitting back and laughing at every OC demonstration because the OC crowd is fighting the war for them. Everytime 50 idiots march into a mall with slung AR-15s "excercising their rights" they are changing the minds of people on the fence about gun control... Unfortunately, they aren't changing the way we want them to...

Get a grip people, you are't helping the cause. If you want to carry a gun, CC it and let the sheep stay happy... Like the old saying goes, "just because you can doesn't mean you should"
 
I highly doubt that those are assault rifles being carried. Perhaps a minor distinction to some, but it adds to the ignorance of society to call those rifles something they are not.

Sam1911:

Great post. I agree, mostly. When we weren't out on patrol or a mission, we almost never carried our rifles around. My teams overwhelmingly preferred carrying our pistols.

I certainly agree with you that it's not the most practical thing to carry a rifle to shop. I also don't think that it's up to us to make that decision for others. I support Target's right to choose whether they want it in their stores, but I also fully support the exercising of our rights, whether others agree with them or not.
 
So far I have only seen one photo of an open carrier that is referenced as being in Target.
I have not read any stories in the news about groups of people with rifles continuously showing up at Target, or any other location for that matter.
You see, aside from Chiploltes(?) and the one image from Target, have yet to see this occurring at any level to scare the public .

You are not educated with what OCT is doing then



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I also don't think that it's up to us to make that decision for others.
And I don't -- CAN'T, actually -- make that decision for someone else. I can point out the consequences, and some of the practicalities and I can encourage folks to think very hard about what they're doing, why they're doing it, and whether the ends are met by the means.

But I can't make them do anything. Just like I can't make Target, Starbucks, Chipotle, etc., change their policies back to a more neutral stance.
 
i cannot hear it anymore... some OC folks are so incredibly dense and unable to even remotely understand the constitution.



there. is. NO. constitutional. right. to. carry. in. a. private. business



PERIOD



same goes for your 1st amendment rights and a lot of other constitutional rights :rolleyes:


No need to get nasty. We're all here for the same reason, a fondness for firearms.
Our Constitutional Rights are only between us and the Government, not private property owners and I agree with you on that!
 
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you can't fix stupid...

btw.. the guy in the blue t-shirt is holding his AR with his hands (facing upwards/sideways) and it's not slung over his shoulder.... if a cop would see him doing that (in TX) he would be in trouble...
 
And I don't -- CAN'T, actually -- make that decision for someone else. I can point out the consequences, and some of the practicalities and I can encourage folks to think very hard about what they're doing, why they're doing it, and whether the ends are met by the means.

But I can't make them do anything. Just like I can't make Target, Starbucks, Chipotle, etc., change their policies back to a more neutral stance.

Perhaps not, but many others certainly do think they can and should make those decisions for all of us. I do not support that.
 
You are not educated with what OCT is doing then







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I noticed that only two of the pictures were tagged as OCT. The rest of them? Pfft...
So what? What is there, twenty people or so armed (not everyone is shown armed!)?
Clearly you have a case of "The British are coming! The British are coming!".
Don't fret! It's all gravy son!
 
Could these Open Carry Fools actually be conspiring members of an anti-gun organization wanting to inflict the most damage to the pro-gun movement with the least expense and greatest potential for nation wide publicity? If they are, they have definitely succeeded. If they are not, isn’t time we all stop politely trying to reason with them and begin savagely and unmercifully ridiculing them? Before these guys do irreversible damage should we threaten them with ostracism? Perhaps if they know that they will not be tolerated in our presence and will have no social contact with the vast majority of shooters they will stop behaving so foolishly. I used to CCW in Target, but now Target will post signage that will make that illegal all because of a few fools.
 
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