Guns not wanted in "family-friendly" Target

[SnowBlaZeR2]

Please quit lumping OC in with OCT. The people here are against Open Carry Texas antics, not opening carrying. You are purposefully trying to imply that board members here have a problem with open carry, almost all do not. the problem is with the long arm open carry demonstrators.

They are not the same thing. The people carrying rifles in stores are NOT doing it for protection, they are doing it for attention. Not the same thing and it is insulting to people who open carry for self defense

For what it's worth, my military career took me many places in this country. Not everyone that chooses to open carry a rifle does so for attention, or for protection. Many are simply stopping somewhere for an errand, a cup of coffee or a bite to eat after a day of hunting, etc. I've done it myself, and no one gave me a second look.

 

[SnowBlaZeR2]

Some people in this thread support and defend OCT. They are for all intents and purposes members of OCT

I don't agree with that. I support many things that I don't agree with or that I am not a part of.

 

[Freakshow]

OCT is seriously rude in how they get their message out; how is that not similarly destructive to our mutual goals?



I hate to say it, but some folks truly are unhinged and need to be brought back in line, for all our sakes. I'll keep my eyes peeled for the next photographed instance of brandishing that gets posted by these guys, and I'm reporting it & encouraging others to do the same. Similar to the "irresponsible gun owner of the day" shaming TTAG does frequently.



TCB

My God..... You plan on calling the cops, to complain about open carry, in jurisdictions that may well ALLOW open carry??!!?!
How in Gods name are you any different than MDA?!
I can't BELIEVE how hostile "you guys" are!!
I'm serious!! Claiming that they need "Mental Health" intervention?!? Just because YOU don't approve of their (OC people) method of carry or protest?!
I am sorry to say this but I feel you should be reported and have YOUR guns removed from YOU until YOU can be evaluated mentally and deemed fit to posses them!!
My God! Is this a gun forum, the place where people can come together and learn from one another for the mutual benefit of knowledge?
This above quoted post reads more like a press release from "Everytown for common sense gun control" than a gun forum of like minded people who want to learn about our guns!

 

[TennJed]

For what it's worth, my military career took me many places in this country. Not everyone that chooses to open carry a rifle does so for attention, or for protection. Many are simply stopping somewhere for an errand, a cup of coffee or a bite to eat after a day of hunting, etc. I've done it myself, and no one gave me a second look.

Point taken, that just like most things nothing is 100% all the time. But it is more than obvious why the people in texas, that we are discussion are doing it. It is for attention. That is not really debatable. I grew up in the country in Mississippi. I grew up hunting. I am familiar with carrying rifles around. This is not what OCT is doing.

 

[Frank Ettin]

In case you haven't noticed, you are flat out wrong. Nobody is trolling facebook looking for photos. OCT is posing for them. Everywhere they can

...

And what a fine example of sloppy, undisciplined, unsafe gun management. Simply leaning a loaded rifle or shotgun against a flat surface is insecure. The guns are essentially unattended and could easily fall. It's not a rack and provides no lateral support.

At Gunsite, which is a hot range, long guns and handguns are expected to always be loaded -- handguns holstered and long guns slung. But the rules require that long guns when in a rack be cleared and left with the action open. Gunsite is the gold standard for safe gun management.

 

[Sam1911]

Not everyone that chooses to open carry a rifle does so for attention, or for protection. Many are simply stopping somewhere for an errand, a cup of coffee or a bite to eat after a day of hunting, etc. I've done it myself, and no one gave me a second look.

Surely! As I've pointed out before, context counts for a lot. But that includes how you're presenting yourself: Hunter with his deer rifle stopping in for a cup of joe in a country diner at 10:00 am on a morning during deer season? Odd looking young guy showing up randomly at a suburban mall or shopping center with a military-style carbine? One "reads" reasonably enough to folks. The other is "off," odd, strange.

It also includes the venue. The denizens of that country diner near the state forest hunting grounds, or AZ desert town out surrounded by BLM land are not going to react the same way as the urban or suburban shoppers at a mall or Target or restaurant.

The very BEST those folks will assume is "Oh...that's one of those odd gun rights protesters." But I don't know that I believe the average person's mind will conclude that BEFORE they conclude, "I wonder if this young chap is about to put us all on the 6:00 news?"

It really doesn't help to say, "well, sometimes it's ok..." when the folks in question are not operating in those rational contexts at all.

 

[SnowBlaZeR2]

My God..... You plan on calling the cops, to complain about open carry, in jurisdictions that may well ALLOW open carry??!!?!
How in Gods name are you any different than MDA?!
I can't BELIEVE how hostile "you guys" are!!
I'm serious!! Claiming that they need "Mental Health" intervention?!? Just because YOU don't approve of their (OC people) method of carry or protest?!
I am sorry to say this but I feel you should be reported and have YOUR guns removed from YOU until YOU can be evaluated mentally and deemed fit to posses them!!
My God! Is this a gun forum, the place where people can come together and learn from one another for the mutual benefit of knowledge?
This above quoted post reads more like a press release from "Everytown for common sense gun control" than a gun forum of like minded people who want to learn about our guns!

He does have a point, though. There is certainly a right way, and a wrong way to do things. It is certainly the minority that are doing things the wrong way, but we also know that it's exactly what the opposition will focus on. I have and will always support everyone's decision to exercise their rights, but there are better ways to do some things, in my opinion.

 

[Freakshow]

The people carrying rifles in stores are NOT doing it for protection, they are doing it for attention. Not the same thing and it is insulting to people who open carry for self defense

Wrong! Period. OCT is doing it to draw attention to the fact that they cannot openly carry a handgun. Any "attention" they garner is a by product of their protesting the current laws in Texas.
As for your assertion that those here have no opposition to open carry.. I say you are wrong there as well. I am sorry but I have seen animosity on a incredible scale towards OCT AND open carry itself.. That is a fact, sorry.

 

[SnowBlaZeR2]

Point taken, that just like most things nothing is 100% all the time. But it is more than obvious why the people in texas, that we are discussion are doing it. It is for attention. That is not really debatable. I grew up in the country in Mississippi. I grew up hunting. I am familiar with carrying rifles around. This is not what OCT is doing.

Certainly. I am with you, mostly, on OCT. I just don't want to see some of us that do not behave in that manner grouped with those that do.

 

[TennJed]

Freakshow, you seem to imply gin owners should support everyone that owns a gun as long as the behavior is legal.

The 4 rules are not law. Perfectly legal for me to break them. Do you support that. What if someone tells you they are stupid rules because they make guns seem scary and dangerous. Heck Bloomberg himself might have come up with them to put guns in a bad light.

I say we ditch the rules and show people that guns are not dangerous. I have you support with that, correct?

 

[Sam1911]

As for your assertion that those here have no opposition to open carry.. I say you are wrong there as well. I am sorry but I have seen animosity on a incredible scale towards OCT AND open carry itself.. That is a fact, sorry.

How have you seen this great animosity toward open carry? I mean, you just got here tonight, right?

You must have read an awful lot of Open Carry threads in the last hour or so to come to that conclusion!

EDIT: Uh oh! Seems there's an issue here...

 

[SnowBlaZeR2]

Surely! As I've pointed out before, context counts for a lot. But that includes how you're presenting yourself: Hunter with his deer rifle stopping in for a cup of joe in a country diner at 10:00 am on a morning during deer season? Odd looking young guy showing up randomly at a suburban mall or shopping center with a military-style carbine? One "reads" reasonably enough to folks. The other is "off," odd, strange.

It also includes the venue. The denizens of that country diner near the state forest hunting grounds, or AZ desert town out surrounded by BLM land are not going to react the same way as the urban or suburban shoppers at a mall or Target or restaurant.

The very BEST those folks will assume is "Oh...that's one of those odd gun rights protesters." But I don't know that I believe the average person's mind will conclude that BEFORE they conclude, "I wonder if this young chap is about to put us all on the 6:00 news?"

It really doesn't help to say, "well, sometimes it's ok..." when the folks in question are not operating in those rational contexts at all.

Agree on all points.

For whatever opinion we have on OCT, I still must support their rights, just as I support anyone's rights that I don't particularly agree with.

 

[Sam1911]

Wrong! Period. OCT is doing it to draw attention to the fact that they cannot openly carry a handgun. Any "attention" they garner is a by product of their protesting the current laws in Texas.

Protest is, by its very definition, an attempt to garner attention. And unless you literally know every active member of OCT, you can't possibly claim that they are NOT acting as they do with the desire to gain notoriety and get their picture in the media. That's an exceedingly common wish and one that it wold be irrational to assume is not in play here.

 

[Freakshow]

Simply leaning a loaded rifle or shotgun against a flat surface.

I'm curious.... How could you know if these guns are loaded or not?
I mean if it's just for attention then why load them?
For that fact, how do you know if there is a round chambered or not?
Maybe that is why they are placed haphazardly against a wall.
I wasn't able to discern whether the guns were "hot" or not just from that picture...

 

[Sam1911]

I'm curious.... How could you know if these guns are loaded or not?

So they might just be carrying UNLOADED rifles around? Well, that seems ... at best like an unreasonable assumption to make. I was going to say "stupid" but that might be perceived as rude.

 

[TennJed]

He does have a point, though. There is certainly a right way, and a wrong way to do things. It is certainly the minority that are doing things the wrong way, but we also know that it's exactly what the opposition will focus on. I have and will always support everyone's decision to exercise their rights, but there are better ways to do some things, in my opinion.

And since the opposition is focusing on the minority that is doing it the wrong way we help their focus by supporting them? We should make it clear that they are focusing on a minority, if not then the reality is we are all seen as doing it the wrong way. That will cost all of us dearly. That is why I am passionate in making it clear I do not support doing it the wrong way

 

[SnowBlaZeR2]

I'm curious.... How could you know if these guns are loaded or not?
I mean if it's just for attention then why load them?
For that fact, how do you know if there is a round chambered or not?
Maybe that is why they are placed haphazardly against a wall.
I wasn't able to discern whether the guns were "hot" or not just from that picture...

The first safety rule that I was taught as a young recruit was "Treat every weapon as if it were loaded". I was taught this by my father and grandfather long before Parris Island. Whether there is a round in the chamber or not is mostly irrelevant.

 

[SnowBlaZeR2]

And since the opposition is focusing on the minority that is doing it the wrong way we help their focus by supporting them? We should make it clear that they are focusing on a minority, if not then the reality is we are all seen as doing it the wrong way. That will cost all of us dearly. That is why I am passionate in making it clear I do not support doing it the wrong way

I just want to be clear. I make a solid distinction between supporting someone's rights, and supporting their actions. I don't agree with how they choose to go about accomplishing their goal, but I can't go so far as to disagree that they have the right to do so.

 

[TennJed]

I'm curious.... How could you know if these guns are loaded or not?
I mean if it's just for attention then why load them?
For that fact, how do you know if there is a round chambered or not?
Maybe that is why they are placed haphazardly against a wall.
I wasn't able to discern whether the guns were "hot" or not just from that picture...

So are they doing it for attention and carrying unloaded/unchambered guns or are the handling loaded guns in a dangerous manner. It has to be one or the other. You tell us which it is and why should we support it

 

[Frank Ettin]

....OCT is doing it to draw attention to the fact that they cannot openly carry a handgun. Any "attention" they garner is a by product of their protesting the current laws in Texas....

And do you really think that what they're doing can by any stretch of the imagination be consider helpful to their cause? If so you really don't understand how things work in the real world.

Some more knowledgeable folks like Rep. George Lavender, R-Texarkana, and Land Commissioner Jerry Patterson who are actually, construtively working hard to try to get open carry of handguns legalized in Texas think the Katenjammer Kids aren't helping:

...And two of Texas' most ardent backers of the open-carry movement — state Rep. George Lavender, R-Texarkana, and Land Commissioner Jerry Patterson — are following the NRA's lead, saying Monday that future demonstrations could damage chances of an open-carry bill passing next year.

“I have told the groups that I have talked to not to do this right now. This could be harmful in getting it passed,” Lavender, who has twice failed to pass open-carry legislation, said of open-carry demonstrations breaking out around the state. “At this point, when we have everything lined up to pass, why take a chance on bad publicity to set us back?”

Patterson, one of the state's most ardent gun aficionados, said of the armed demonstrations: “In certain cases it's not helping, it's actually probably hurting.”...

I'm curious.... How could you know if these guns are loaded or not?
I mean if it's just for attention then why load them?
For that fact, how do you know if there is a round chambered or not?
Maybe that is why they are placed haphazardly against a wall.
I wasn't able to discern whether the guns were "hot" or not just from that picture...

The first Jeff Cooper/Gunsite rule of safe gun handling is, "All guns are always loaded." No competent and decently trained person will ever assume a gun is not loaded unless he has personal verified its condition.

The fact that you would make that statement indicates that you are not well trained or knowledgeable about gun handling.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I don't think that I have ever seen the kind of animosity posted here against fellow gun owners on ANY of the other gun forums!
You guys are seriously rude in describing your "brothers in arms" and I find it astounding!
Calling OC people gun nuts, less than intelligent, jerks and other things add nausea!
Do you seriously think that OCT or any other group that OC's is the reason that they've been targeted?!
Don't you worry then because every gun.. Every single gun... They will be targeted, soon enough.
MDA, Mr. Bloomberg and every gun group on this continent will be targeted.
But before that happens, you're just going to throw OCT under the bus..... Bravo!
When big brother comes for your guns, and he will come for them, you just remember that "you" sold out your brothers first...

It's not "OC people" we have a problem with here; it's OCT and OCTC, because, as illustrated to you ad nauseum here, their tactics are severely hurting our cause.

As for the second half of your statement, well..........whatever, chicken little.

My God..... You plan on calling the cops, to complain about open carry, in jurisdictions that may well ALLOW open carry??!!?!

If they're behaving in a manner that I consider unsafe in any way, you bet. Responsible OC includes muzzle control and not fondling your weapon in public. Moreover, OCT, OCTC and other such organizations are causing damage to the entire movement that had been slowly progressing in our favor for over twenty years now, and we need to get them to knock it off before we suffer any really serious setbacks as a result of their antics. Sometimes the fringe element needs to be ostracized for the core group to survive. Like debriding a wound or cutting out a cancer.

Make a reasonable attempt to project the image of a responsible, mature, law-abiding adult, you have my full support to carry a properly holstered handgun everywhere you go. But a slovenly, disheveled, morbidly obese character with a 5-day neck beard wearing a loud tee shirt, shorts and sandals whislt recklessly toting an autoloading carbine through a suburban shopping center is a person I absolutely do not want to be associated with on any level.

 

[jaysouth]

freakshow

Your are the last person alive to be citing "high road".

Common sense is not as common as it used to be

 

[TennJed]

I just want to be clear. I make a solid distinction between supporting someone's rights, and supporting their actions. I don't agree with how they choose to go about accomplishing their goal, but I can't go so far as to disagree that they have the right to do so.

I am sure most here are familiar with the Westboro Baptist Church. OCT is the same thing. I am sure most Christians support their right to worship, but they do not support their actions and they make it clear that their church is not WBC. If you take 99% of Baptist in the country and start a conversation with them about Westboro how many will just say I support their right and that's all I got to say?

OCT is the Westboro Baptist Church of 2A rights.

 

[SnowBlaZeR2]

But a slovenly, disheveled, morbidly obese character with a 5-day neck beard wearing a loud tee shirt, shorts and sandals whislt recklessly toting an autoloading carbine through a suburban shopping center is a person I absolutely do not want to be associated with on any level.

What about an upbeat, well-groomed, physically fit character with a fresh shave wearing slacks and a tucked in buttoned shirt carrying a semi-automatic rifle?

 

[barnbwt]

For whatever opinion we have on OCT, I still must support their rights, just as I support anyone's rights that I don't particularly agree with.

Exactly. Doesn't mean I should support or endorse their choice of action, particularly when it is counterproductive to what I'm trying to accomplish. They're in the way; that's all. If I catch them doing illegal behavior, under what moral basis should I tolerate them?

You sir are what I like to refer to as "anti-gun light".
You're doing MDA's job just as surely as if you claim the OC crowd is doing...
Chopping down carriers who think differently than you do just like Mr. Bloomberg !
MDA would be proud of you!

*sigh* I'm making my "chastened" face. Maybe I should just be quiet and let you continue to promote this inflammatory line of thought; you obviously are so much purer of heart than I, so you must obviously be right about this. Let me know how up to speed you are on gun building and the multitude of repugnant rules/laws in that sector, and we can talk about how anti gun I am.

Some people in this thread support and defend OCT. They are for all intents and purposes members of OCT

Slow down, there, Starsky; groupthink will get us nowhere on this. I do think people blindly and loudly exhorting OCT against all arguments are likely members of the same.

Not everyone that chooses to open carry a rifle does so for attention, or for protection. Many are simply stopping somewhere for an errand, a cup of coffee or a bite to eat after a day of hunting, etc. I've done it myself, and no one gave me a second look.

That's where I hope we can end up one day. I hope you can see how I doubt that inflammatory escalation will ever get us to such a laid back scenario, though. Maybe it could get us to the point of tolerating slogan-chanting protestors inside our eateries, though

My God..... You plan on calling the cops, to complain about open carry, in jurisdictions that may well ALLOW open carry??!!?!

If you guys are breaking the law, explain why I should not do so as my civic duty. I know you frame the situation as these actions being legal by virtue of them being those of people you agree with, but that is not what these photos show. A shotgun or rifle gripped with the finger above the trigger & thumb att the safety, low ready, with a magazine inserted and the bolt closed is not sufficiently close to brandishing? Really? Just how many milliseconds am I supposed to put between myself and a potential threat before I determine he's too close to killing me for comfort? I can't know if your gun is loaded and about to point at me, and if it is there is no way I could respond in time; this is a self-defense problem you are making for me solely by virtue of your actions.

And do you really think that what they're doing can by any stretch of the imagination be consider helpful to their cause?

Oh, of course it is. Their own press release said they singlehandedly put OC issues at the forefront of the national stage. And that's all that counts, right? Oh wait, we're also supposed to make people sympathetic to us; I always forget about that last part...

TCB