30-06 feedback

OK, start with the basics.

We will start with the assumption that the barrel isn't shot-out, bent, have big digs in the crown, full of rust or things like that.

Pull the scope and scope mounts, degrease and put-em back, solid not too tight. Pull the action from the stock, clean and degrease and put it back (follow what ever tightening sequence the manufacture gives, if one - other wise, pull up all bolts a little at a time till very snug). Check for clearance between all metal and the stock, if it's 'free-floating' make sure the barrel is not touching. We want a very solid connection between the receiver and the stocks mating lugs, no wiggle or slipping here.

Used or not, scrub all surfaces clean. Recover with the appropriate oils/greases/rust preventives.

Clean and get all copper fowling out of the barrel. Only pull/push from the chamber out the muzzle.

Re-test your loads. I'll bet that your groups will tighten up some just with this. If you are still having problems, get some one else to take a few shots to eliminate you being the wiggler.

I'm not one to mess with triggers, sears and anything else that could alter the safety of a weapon. If the trigger is 'crap', option one, take it to a professional that specialize in that brand's trigger or, option two, buy one of the many (expensive) drop in replacement trigger units. Follow the instructions explicitly!

If the above doesn't bring your groups to an acceptable place, hands on inspection by someone who can go deeper is needed. In the last 55 years, I have yet to find a rifle that can be improved by doing what I have listed, some more than others.

I haven't tried IMR-4007 that I recall. But I have had great results with RL22, RL19, and IMR-4350, just to name a few. Generally, I like powders that provide a good full case, 90% or better.

But the first thing that strikes me as causing an accuracy issue, is your charge, which is below the published start charge as per Hodgdon. Dropping the charge that low will often have a negative effect on accuracy with high powered rifle cartridges, such as the -06. Most bottle neck loads will have more than one accurate load, usually one up near or at max, and then one around mid table, in my experience.

So, if it were me, I would bump your charge up to 52.5 grs. and then work up from there until accuracy improves, and it should.

Also make some adjustments to your OAL, and see if you can find the accuracy node. I know not everyone agrees with this, but I like to seat them up closer to the lands, usually around .010" off the lands. But this is something you'll want to approach with caution, you have to make sure it isn't going to cause you problems with magazine fit. And you don't really want them touching the lands for a hunting rig, could cause a bullet to stick in the lands, thus being pulled out when opening the bolt, though this has never been a problem for me in more than 30 yrs., it is possible.

OTOH, there is often another OAL accuracy node that is well off the lands, especially with production rifles.

GS

I have no personal experience with that particular powder. I do however have plenty using IMR-4350 with a number of different bullets.

If you can get your hands on some you should give it a try. It has shot sub moa groups out of close to a dozen different makes of 30-06 rifles I have used it in.

You are below the recommended starting powder weight. I usually find best accuracy just under the max listed load. Add some more powder and see what happens. You're 300 fps slower than a 308 right now. You may not need the speed, but there isn't any need to go that slow either.

52 gr @ about 2700 fps is the minimum according to my sources. 55.3 is listed as max @ around 2900 fps.

Either IMR 4350 or H 4350 seems to be the go-to 30-06 powders with 150-180 gr bullets good accuracy and speed. I've had good success with both. I'm shooting 150's at a bit over 3025 fps with very good accuracy.

Shall we try to isolate the problem.
Weapon - ammunition - shooter.

Is there a change in group sizes when firing other/factory ammunition?

Have another shooter fire off a set. Better or same?

Above I listed weapon checks. I don't know your powder selection, so I'm no help with that. Try other loads. As you are capable of MOA shoots with your 308, why one but not the other?

I keep coming back to the weapon - scope.

More testing is called for.

Weigh every charge using two different scales and make sure of uniform charges to one tenth of a grain. One tenth of a grain off can make a big difference at 100 yards, maybe one inch or more.

For good accuracy, I use IMR 4350, Sierra bullets and Lapua brass because I'm too lazy to weigh brass and bullets.

Looking at the target, if the target covered the vitals on a deer at 100 yards the deer would be dead the way I see it. While not an ideal group the rifle is indeed a hunting rifle. So while the group could be likely improved it is hard to say why we see what we see. There is you, the rifle, the ammunition.

All you can really do is work on the loads and possibly your shooting habits. Pretty much as everyone mentions. So while the group is less than ideal, if it was a deer it would likely be dead.

Ron

I have experimented extensively with the 30-06 with 150gr and 165gr bullets. I have had my best accuracy with RL19 when using 150gr bullets and H414 has given me my best results with 165gr, while IMR4350 has worked reasonably well with both, and while I have yet to achieve tack driving accuracy with IMR 4064 I get my most consistent speeds with it, the last group I shot had a 0 fps spread! All clocked in at 2943fps with a 150gr SST.
While you would think RL19 would be too slow burning for a 150gr 30-06 I have found it to be impressive, currently I am driving 150gr TTSX bullet to 3050ish fps with just under 1/2MOA accuracy and zero pressure signs using 61.5gr, almost 100fps faster then the same load with a 150gr SST or Speer BTSP which both give near 1/2MOA performance as well, just so long as they are loaded close to the lands (my Savage likes them long)
I don't have my H414 load in front of me it is in my shop, but I think I was around 55.6gr with a 165gr Speer BTSP at 2950ish fps which is quite a bit faster then I thought they would go, and considerably faster then the manual suggests, unlike the RL19 load though I am starting to see pressure with that one, not excessive pressure but I am starting to loose the rounded edge on the primers, not flowing but defiantly a warm load, I feel totally safe using it but will not be stepping up the powder charge and won't try it in another brand of brass/primer without working up first. All were tested in a 22" Barrel Savage 111 synthetic (Walmart Special) topped with a Leopold VXII and Reaper one piece rings/base, and all loads are using CCI primers and Remington brass. While my 30-06 is not as accurate as my 6.5x55, 7mm-08, or 270 WSM I am quite happy with it's performance for a light hunting rifle.

I don't know why anyone thinks there is a problem here. not every rifle is a match rifle throwing 5 rounds into one hole from 600 yards. Those groups are just fine especially for a used hunting rifle.

jmr40 said:

You are below the recommended starting powder weight. I usually find best accuracy just under the max listed load. Add some more powder and see what happens. You're 300 fps slower than a 308 right now. You may not need the speed, but there isn't any need to go that slow either.

52 gr @ about 2700 fps is the minimum according to my sources. 55.3 is listed as max @ around 2900 fps.

Either IMR 4350 or H 4350 seems to be the go-to 30-06 powders with 150-180 gr bullets good accuracy and speed. I've had good success with both. I'm shooting 150's at a bit over 3025 fps with very good accuracy.

Click to expand...

A also have never used that powder. I agree however your velocities are way low. Some bullets will not expand reliable at the lower velocities especially when you are talking about possible reaching out to 300 yards.

You will find most times you will see a accurate load at the lower end of the charge range and then again at the upper end of the charge range. Rarely is it at the very top but usually close.

I also use mostly IMR4350 or H4350 for loading the 30-06. (except for M1 Garand ammo of course) With a 165gr bullet I have found an extremely accurate load with 57.0gr of either 4350. I have shot many sub 1/2MOA groups with a very old US Model of 1917 surplus rifle. (hardly a match rifle yet very accurate)

With a Sierra 165gr bullet Hodgdon lists a starting charge weight of 54.3gr and a max charge weight of 55.9gr when using IMR4007. Your charge weights are a little low according to Hodgdon. You might want to increase the velocities so that @300 yards your bullet shoots flat and reliable expands on game.

I haven't loaded the 150 grain in years. I went to the 165 way back in the 70's. I always had good luck in the '06 with both 4350 and 4064. Even when I loaded the 150 they both worked.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but in response to what GS said: when testing out new loads which order do you do it in? Do you find out COAL first and then charge, or the other way around? Or do you try a variety of charges and a variety of OALs at the same time?

When you pulled the action from the stock what did you torque the screws down to? Mine is a mere 35 inch pounds. (Inch is not a typo.)

There are specs for mounts, rings, everything. And the numbers are small.

when testing out new loads which order do you do it in? Do you find out COAL first and then charge, or the other way around? Or do you try a variety of charges and a variety of OALs at the same time?

Click to expand...

Trying "a variety of charges and a variety of OALs at the same time" will cost you beau coup bucks in a hurry, due to there being so many combinations. I establish my COAL first (0.010" - 0.015 off the lands - assuming they also fit the magazine), and then play with charge weights. Any particular load is a combination of COAL and charge weight with whichever method you choose to use, but my starting point is to restrict the bullet jump to the lands. Hope that helps.

Don

Assuming that's at 100 yards, it's good for deer or anything else a 150 will kill(lot of critters), anywhere on the Planet. That about 2" to 3"?
However, 51 is below minimum for a 150 with 4007. Below minimum can be as dangerous as above max. Your's isn't terribly low though.
As mentioned, the starting load is 52.5 to the max load of 55.3C. Don't worry about compressed loads.
If you want to reduce the groups, you need to work up the load with proper data(not just pick one and hope), do or have a trigger job done and bed the rifle(floating the barrel may or may not affect anything. Some rifles like it. Some don't. The only way to find out if your's does is to try it. Isn't a big deal to put a pressure point back in if it doesn't.).
Changing to a 165(with IMR4064) might make a difference, but if I had 400 150 SP's, I wouldn't change bullets either. Don't think I'd change powders right away either. IMR4064 and the 4895's aren't the only game and your rifle clearly likes the 4007. Falls under Rule Number One. If it works, don't fix it.

Frankly the groups look to be about what I would expect from a stock Winchester 70. Sure there are super tweaked 70's around, but the average seems to be 1.5 - 2.0 MOA guns.

Follow the earlier advise to dissassemble everything, clean well, and reassemble to proper torque with locktite. It's amazing how often a loose screw in the base, rings, or stock will cause accuracy issues.

Also get a strong light and carefully look down the barrel from both ends, especially since you don't know the real round count on the barrel. Built up copper fouling, burned or rough looking area at the throat, etc. will degrade accuracy.

HisStigness, yes, I always establish my powder charge at the OAL closest to the lands. By working from that OAL, one will eliminate the possibility of a pressure spike. That is the OAL that produces the highest pressures, everything shorter is going to remain at, or in fact below those pressures.

GS

It's cool to read all of these replies because it reminds me that there is no one way to go about something and everyone does things a little different.

I have personally never measured to see where the lands are to seat a bullet just off them. I simply seat bullets to the oal listed in the manual. I tried to do the lands measuring thing but didn't have the proper equipment and didn't end up getting it.

However I have rarely had trouble achieving good accuracy off the bench (field positions are a different story, but the loads were all good from sand bags )

I have found that usually if you start at the starting load and load up in 0.5 grain increments you will normally see the groups start to close up. Then there will come a point where you see them open back up. That will tell you the best load for that bullet/powder combo.

If the best groups aren't up to your wishes, try a different bullet/bullet weight.
I like 165 grain bullets in my '06 because I've never found one it didn't shoot well.

Playing with it is half the fun though. However, it can get expensive.

This is the way I do it. It certainly isn't the only way and many many of the guys here have more experience than I so consider all opinions and find a way that works for you.

"If the best groups aren't up to your wishes, try a different bullet/bullet weight.
I like 165 grain bullets in my '06 because I've never found one it didn't shoot well."
I agree Paul. I like that 165. And the cheaper ones seem to shoot just fine. I wound up wit Hornady Interlock and Sierra Game Kings. Old school I guess.

^ I like the Hornady SSTs and SGKs myself. With the Sierras, I prefer the BTHP. Don't hit bone though. Man those things tear a hole.