30-06 Rem700 reloading question?

[Telum Pisces]

I am chasing my tail with this dang rifle when it comes to reloads. I can shoot the cheapest of cheap corelokts just fine. I'm trying to find "MY" load that works. I've tried 5+ powders, 4 bullet brands of all the same grains and experimented to 165 and 180 grain. SP and PSP. Nothing get's better than the factory rounds!

These seems so backwards. I've tried replicating the factory loads as much as can physically without getting my hands on their powder!

IMR-4064 at 150 Grains is supposed to be the target load for best performance according to my sources. It's a 2 MOA at best load.

I really despise buying factory rounds. But I am open to ideas. RIght now I have 150 grain Hornady Spitzer SP loaded over 48 grains of IMR 4064 to try. My factory loads are pushing 150 grain rounds over 3000 FPS. I use the superformance and hypersonic loads from hornady and remington to give flatter trajectories and I can put three round in the same ragged hole at 100-150 rounds with those factory rounds.

Reloading rounds is just disappointing. HELP!

If it makes a difference before I switched to the 150 Grain factory rounds, my gun shot regular core lokts 180 grain soft point rounded nose bullets the best out of anything. So I bought some Sierra 180 Grain round nose and no combination seems to work with those either!

 

[stringnut]

Several things could be going on here. Your 4064 load is at the lower end. Every source I have checked tops out in the 51 to 52 gr range. Many people report good results with loads less the max. However, that does not mean that the results are the best attainable with that powder. If you don't up the charge you have no way of knowing what the results will be. I have used both IMR a d Accurate 4064 in several cartridges. All shot best with loads approaching max. Pretty much the same results with 4350. Nothing I , my wife , my dad, or brother own with a bottle neck case shoots it's best with starting loads.

John Barsness mentioned this in an article , and I believe, in one of his gun gack books. Basically smokeless powder burns best at at or above a certain pressure. It varies from powder to powder, but if it doesn't reach that pressure, it may give erratic results.

 

[Telum Pisces]

Several things could be going on here. Your 4064 load is at the lower end. Every source I have checked tops out in the 51 to 52 gr range. Many people report good results with loads less the max. However, that does not mean that the results are the best attainable with that powder. If you don't up the charge you have no way of knowing what the results will be. I have used both IMR a d Accurate 4064 in several cartridges. All shot best with loads approaching max. Pretty much the same results with 4350. Nothing I , my wife , my dad, or brother own with a bottle neck case shoots it's best with starting loads.

John Barsness mentioned this in an article , and I believe, in one of his gun gack books. Basically smokeless powder burns best at at or above a certain pressure. It varies from powder to powder, but if it doesn't reach that pressure, it may give erratic results.

I've tried max loads per my books and even added more till I saw pressure signs! So now I am trying the other way. Number 10,000 of these loads I'm trying. This time, I have also reloaded them a little longer than what is called for. They chamber and cycle fine.

My factory loads are cruising at 3150 FPS That's rocking for a 30-06. No load book or online I have available shows those FPS. Just wondering if it's the proprietary blend of powder the factory loads use.

 

[AJC1]

Try a systematic approach starting with an ocw testing and then a Berger seating test. This is how the pros do it. Take a bunch of notes and post targets for help and advice.

 

[jmr40]

Have you actually shot those loads over a chronograph or are you taking the data printed on the box as accurate. I tried a couple of boxes of that stuff in 308 and 30-06. Neither came close to matching stated velocities. The 308 load was faster than I could get with handloads, and acceptably accurate. The 30-06 loads didn't shoot as fast as my handloads and were unacceptably accurate in my rifle.

A max load of H4350 and 150's gives me 3050 fps from my 22" 30-06 with MOA accuracy. The Superformance ammo was about 2950 in my rifle.

I think 4064 is a better 308 powder than 30-06. I've had best luck with either IMR4350 or H4350. Both give me equal speeds and accuracy. Given the option I prefer H4350 simply because it is less sensitive to temperature changes. Ramshot Hunter is another good powder. IMR4451 is supposed to be a good substitute for either 4350 powder. I bought a container a few years ago when 4350 was unobtainable, but just about the time I started working with it 4350 started showing up.

Right now you just have to use what you can find. The Alliant RL17 is supposed to be good too.

Your 4064 load is at the lower end. Every source I have checked tops out in the 51 to 52 gr range.

This is a clue. I've found best accuracy near max loads. If there is a lot of empty space in the cartridge case the powder burns inconsistently. You don't necessarily need to compress the powder, but at times it helps, but you need enough so that it stays in the same place and doesn't move around inside the case. This is why certain powders work great with certain bullet weights and cartridges and not with others.

 

[DRM7997]

Ive had really good luck with imr4895. For my 30-06 (Mauser action 2 groove 03-A3 barrel) I use 47grs under a Hornady 150gr psp interlock. Its extremely accurate.
My 700 in 308 likes 43.5 with 150 Hornady.

 

[climbnjump]

IMR-4064 at 150 Grains is supposed to be the target load for best performance according to my sources.

What sources would those be? Perhaps check some others?

RIght now I have 150 grain Hornady Spitzer SP loaded over 48 grains of IMR 4064 to try.

Well, the Hornady reloading manual 10th edition lists a starting load for that powder and bullet at 44.7gr with a max of 55.6gr.

Although your load is above the starting load, it is still on the lower end of the range. As others have pointed out, you might not be getting best ignition and burn consistency at that pressure.

It's hard to tell from your original post, but it sounds like you haven't actually shot these yet, but have experienced poor results with other powder/bullet combos. Without knowing more about what those loads were, it's rather hard to guess about what might be wrong. But if you are loading those others on the low end of the spectrum and getting poor results from all, then that might be telling you something.

But if you can get the accuracy out of your rifle that you mentioned with factory loads, then you should be able to find a handload that will also shoot well.

 

[lordpaxman]

I've tried max loads per my books and even added more till I saw pressure signs! So now I am trying the other way. Number 10,000 of these loads I'm trying. This time, I have also reloaded them a little longer than what is called for. They chamber and cycle fine.

It would help to know how much reloading experience you have. When working up a load, start at the minimum and then work up to maximum. As @AJC1 said, pick a methodology like OCW or a ladder test to first find an accuracy or velocity node, and then do a lands test for groups.

I use the superformance and hypersonic loads from hornady and remington to give flatter trajectories and I can put three round in the same ragged hole at 100-150 rounds with those factory rounds.

I suspect you mean your target distance is 100-150 yards? It’s amazing to me that a variety of factory ammo will shoot so well at this distance. I gave up trying to duplicate factory ammo, just use the components you have. There are a lot of variables to reloading, so your process has a large impact on the consistency of reloads. Have and love the 700s, BTW. Good luck!

 

[Kp321]

One thing that has happened over the years is factory loads are better than they were at one time. It sometimes takes lots of experimentation to come up with handloads that outperform factories.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Nothing get's better than the factory rounds!

I use the superformance and hypersonic loads from hornady and remington to give flatter trajectories and I can put three round in the same ragged hole at 100-150 rounds with those factory rounds.

Well, if you're putting 3 shots into 1 ragged hole, how much better do you think you're going to get?

 

[Telum Pisces]

Well, if you're putting 3 shots into 1 ragged hole, how much better do you think you're going to get?

I don't want better. I just want the same or close with my reloads. I despise having to buy factory rounds now that I reload.

To answer a lot of the other questions. I have shot all the mixes I have had problems with. I have worked up the loads with 5+ bullets. I have worked up the same bullets with different powder loads. I have tried all the primers. I have trimmed cases to different lengths. I have tried seating the bullets at the same and different lengths that are supposed to match my exact rifle. This has been a year in the making problem.

And it's frustrating the mess out of me. The only thing I don't have is the proprietary powder they use in the factory rounds. But I would think with the 10+ powders I have tried, one would be close!

I may just stick with the factory rounds. Yes, I have run everything through a chronograph.

 

[lordpaxman]

Would you care to enlighten us how you “worked up the loads”? I’m a fan of getting the optimum charge weight for a given powder/bullet combination first, then doing a lands test second. I doubt primers substitution will change anything at 150 yards. Until you settle on a charge weight, chasing COL is pointless. Assuming your case OAL is within spec, trimming to different lengths isn’t going to change anything other than your crimp die setting. Too much crimp or too little neck tension has a lot to do with getting good groups as well.

 

[Thomasss]

Do you want speed or MOA or both? Velocity only gives me a sore shoulder. You have to control recoil or else speed means nothing, but a lot of noise. You don't give us the total picture. Cases, primers, bullet seating. My 700 Remington 30.06 favorite loads: 150 gr Hornady SST, 49 gr of IMR-4064, Remington brass trimmed to 2.83, Federal Match Large Rifle Primer, seated at 3.223; 165 Hornady or Speer Soft Point, Rem case, Fed Match primer, same trim, 58 gr of H-4831, seated at 3.257 or try IMR 4064 at 47.5: 180 grain Nosler SST or Winchester Spitzer SP, 54 grains of H-4831 seated at 3.280. All these loads will give me sub MOA at 100yds.

 

[SlowFuse]

You have a good start on info to diagnose the load problems. Sounds like a ladder test is in order.

I have a different question/approach... when you're shooting these loads are your variables as equal as possible? We know you can't control the wind and temp etc but picking a calm day helps. Most important in my case is taking out as much user caused inaccuracies as possible.

For me that means:
- rifle in a lead sled
- lay off the coffee!

 

[skeeterfogger]

My best experience with 06 was shooting the Garand. 06 generally work best with 150-180 gn bullets. If I was reloading I would study the loads for the Garand. I say that because the load work up for it shoots great in any Garand manufactured to the military specs. Granted sport rifles are going to vary but that's they way they roll. I've found that the 165-168 typically shoot very good in lots of 06s. My preference is Privi 165 spbt.
Look through the post, Savage Axis Accuracy. It's about an 06 and some good info.

 

[Thomasss]

Slowfuse has an excellent point. Recently read that instead of shooting one test load in one target, set up several test targets and shoot one test bullet in the first, the second type of test in target #2 and so on. In this method, flinches, hiccups, wind, rain, sun or whatever faux pas will be spread equally over all the targets. Otherwise you could have a very good poor load in target 1 and a very bad load in target 5, just because you were getting tired by the time you shot target 5.

 

[Lennyjoe]

IMR 4350 and 165 Sierra Gameking BTSP is my go to for deer and 180 gr Nosler Partition with the same powder (different charge weights) for Elk. I really only tried IMR 4350 in my Savage 110 and accuracy was way beyond my expectations so I didn’t even try another powder.

Like others have said 4064 is more of a .308 powder.

 

[Newfiebullet]

Slowfuse has an excellent point. Recently read that instead of shooting one test load in one target, set up several test targets and shoot one test bullet in the first, the second type of test in target #2 and so on. In this method, flinches, hiccups, wind, rain, sun or whatever faux pas will be spread equally over all the targets. Otherwise you could have a very good poor load in target 1 and a very bad load in target 5, just because you were getting tired by the time you shot target 5.

Sound advice

 

[Chuck R.]

Slowfuse has an excellent point. Recently read that instead of shooting one test load in one target, set up several test targets and shoot one test bullet in the first, the second type of test in target #2 and so on. In this method, flinches, hiccups, wind, rain, sun or whatever faux pas will be spread equally over all the targets. Otherwise you could have a very good poor load in target 1 and a very bad load in target 5, just because you were getting tired by the time you shot target 5.

The "round robin" is part of the OCW method of load testing. A little confusing at 1st until you get used to it. I now write the load number LARGE on the TGTs to keep myself straight

 

[Bayou52]

I've got a 1979 vintage Rem 700 in 30-06. My load is 45.2 grains of IMR 4064 pushing a 168 grain Nosler Custom Competition. This is nowhere near a max load but it will shoot respectable groups when I do my part. (Admittedly, I'm a very amateur shooter). I've also loaded the same projectile with 54.2 grains of Power Pro 4000 with very good groupings as well.

Here are a couple of past pics that I have on file:





I also started casting and powder coating projectiles for this rifle as well. Results seem to be dandy. Here's a recent pic I have on file using cast and powder coated projectiles with a copper gas check. The load was the same as with jacketed projectiles - 45.2 grains IMR 4064:



Bayou52

 

[jmorris]

I am chasing my tail with this dang rifle when it comes to reloads. I can shoot the cheapest of cheap corelokts just fine. I'm trying to find "MY" load that works. I've tried 5+ powders, 4 bullet brands of all the same grains and experimented to 165 and 180 grain. SP and PSP. Nothing get's better than the factory rounds!

These seems so backwards. I've tried replicating the factory loads as much as can physically without getting my hands on their powder!

If you have the factory loads, you already have your hands on the powder and charge they use, bullet too.

Now that you have tried 5+ powders and 4 different bullet brands trying to obtain “factory” results, how about you pull the bullets from factory ammunition and put their powder charge into cases you have sized/prepped and set their bullet on top?

Now you have their exact powder charge and bullet, if your results are worse than the factory ammunition, you can quit looking at your components as the cause and focus on your methods.

This doesn’t seem like much but is a huge step in finding the source of your problem. If you can’t reuse a case they had used and get the same results with the same powder/charge and projectile, there is little need to blame powder or projectile.

 

[Slamfire]

Three shot groups mean nothing. You are probably chasing patterns that don't exist.

Five shot group, finally found a MOA load:



Increase the round count and watch your delusions pop in real time



Yes, its around 2 MOA to 3 MOA at distance.



Just love those three shot groups, I have a sub MOA rifle and load



oh no, the group is getting larger



should have stayed with three shots



still not bad. But lesson to be learned, no more than three shots for a group.