Difference between straw purchase and buying a gift?

Status
Not open for further replies.

EchoM70

Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2012
Messages
344
Location
Georgia
What's the difference between a straw purchase and purchasing a firearm as a gift for someone?

My wife got me a firearm for my birthday recently and it made me think... She purchased the firearm in her name, filled out the form and when I got home that day she gave me the firearm. Is that considered a straw purchase since the firearm was intended for me as a gift? Why or why not?
 
The "straw purchase" question was pretty much covered in this thread: What is a "Straw Purchase?". See post 23:
Frank Ettin said:
Note: The Supreme Court has issued its ruling in the "straw purchase" case, Abramski v. U. S.. Based on that ruling the following explanation of what constitute a straw purchase under the ATF interpretation reflects current law. See here for a discussion of the Abramski ruling.


sota said:
...LEGALLY (folllowing all rules and regulations) buying 2* guns in my name with the explicit intent of selling 1 of those to a friend (also following all rules and regulations regarding private transfers) can not be considered a straw purchase, ...
Wrong.

dogtown tom said:
...A straw purchase is not solely "buying for a prohibited person", but buying on behalf of ANYONE else.....from a licensed dealer.
Correct.

The actual offense is violation of 18 USC 922(a)(6), making a false statement on the 4473 (specifically about who is the actual buyer), and has nothing to do with the ultimate recipient being a prohibited person.

See the ATF publication Federal Firearms Regulation Reference Guide, 2005, at page 165 (emphasis added):
15. STRAW PURCHASES

Questions have arisen concerning the lawfulness of firearms purchases from licensees by persons who use a "straw purchaser" (another person) to acquire the firearms. Specifically, the actual buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute the Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser of the firearm. In some instances, a straw purchaser is used because the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. That is to say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other prohibited categories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms or is a resident of a State other than that in which the licensee's business premises is located. Because of his or her disability, the person uses a straw purchaser who is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm from the licensee. In other instances, neither the straw purchaser nor the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm.

In both instances, the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm, as well as the actual purchaser's residence address and date of birth. The actual purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser to acquire a firearm has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of the false statements. The licensee selling the firearm under these circumstances also violates Federal law if the licensee is aware of the false statements on the form. It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located, are not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms, and could have lawfully purchased firearms...

So, if --

  1. X says to Y, "Here's the money; buy that gun and then we'll do the transfer to me [when I get back to town, or whenever else].", or

  2. X says to Y, "Buy that gun and hold it for me; I'll buy from you when I get my next paycheck."
or anything similar, if Y then buys the gun, he is not the actual buyer. He is buying the gun as the agent of X, on his behalf; and X is legally the actual buyer. If Y claims on the 4473 that he is the actual buyer, he has lied and violated 18 USC 922(a)(6). His subsequently transferring the gun to X in full compliance with the law, does not erase his prior criminal act of lying on the 4473.

Some more examples --

  • If X takes his own money, buys the gun and gives the gun to someone else as a gift, free and clear without reimbursement of any kind, X is the actual purchaser; and it is not a straw purchase.

  • If X takes his money and buys the gun honestly intending to keep it for himself and later sells it to another person, X is the actual purchaser; and it is not a straw purchase.

  • If X takes his money and buys the gun intending to take it to the gun show next week to see if he might be able to sell it to someone at a profit, X is the actual purchaser; and it's not a straw purchase. He may, however have other problems if he manages to sell the gun at the gun show, and the transfer there isn't handled properly. He might also have problems if he does this sort of thing too frequently, and the ATF decides he's acting as a dealer without the necessary license.

  • If X takes his money and buys the gun with the understanding that he is going to transfer the gun to Y and that Y is going to reimburse him for it, X is not the actual purchaser. He is advancing X the money and buying the gun for and on behalf of Y, as Y's agent. So this would be an illegal straw purchase.

Whether or not a transaction is an unlawful straw purpose will often be a question of intent. But prosecutors in various situations can convince juries of intent, often from circumstantial evidence. A slip of the tongue, posting something on the Internet, tracks left by money transfers have all, in one way or another, and in various contexts, helped convince a jury of intent.
 
Gifts are covered on the back on form 4473. You can buy a gift and transfer as long as they can own a firearm and you follow state law.
 
Frank, can I get your opinion on this?


California

X and Y go to sporting goods store and pick out 1 hand gun each.

X and Y both fill out 4473 individually / respectively.

X pays store for both guns; X's and Y's hand gun (using credit card)

Both wait 10 Day period, pass back ground check etc.

Both return to store, finish paperwork, and pick up their respective hand gun.


Straw or no straw?

Would it matter if money ever exchanged between X and Y some amount of time after the initial purchase (does it matter if it was a gift or not?) ?
 
Short answer. If the person paying for the gun knowingly buys for someone who could not legally own a gun it is a straw purchase.

If the person receiving the gun is legal, it is a legal gift.
 
Frank, can I get your opinion on this?


California

X and Y go to sporting goods store and pick out 1 hand gun each.

X and Y both fill out 4473 individually / respectively.

X pays store for both guns; X's and Y's hand gun (using credit card)

Both wait 10 Day period, pass back ground check etc.

Both return to store, finish paperwork, and pick up their respective hand gun.


Straw or no straw?

Would it matter if money ever exchanged between X and Y some amount of time after the initial purchase (does it matter if it was a gift or not?) ?
I'm not Frank and I'm not in California, but my unsolicited thinking is that this wouldn't be a problem. The intended buyer of the firearm correctly filled out the form indicating he was purchasing the firearm with that particular serial number for himself. He didn't indicate (nor did he have to) where he was getting the money from. A straw purchase is a crime of lying on a federal form and I don't think there was a lie told in this case. To take it to the absurd, if you were borrowing money to buy a gun does that make the finance company the actual purchaser?

The gun is for Bob and Bob's name is on the 4473. It's about who is buying the gun, not who is paying for it. Jim is just loaning Bob some money. Does that makes sense, and am I right? Frank?
 
Frank, can I get your opinion on this?


California

X and Y go to sporting goods store and pick out 1 hand gun each.

X and Y both fill out 4473 individually / respectively.

X pays store for both guns; X's and Y's hand gun (using credit card)

Both wait 10 Day period, pass back ground check etc.

Both return to store, finish paperwork, and pick up their respective hand gun.


Straw or no straw?

Would it matter if money ever exchanged between X and Y some amount of time after the initial purchase (does it matter if it was a gift or not?) ?
"straw purchase" doesn't care where the money is coming from.

It =does= care about who is filling out the 4473 -vs- who is going to have possession of the gun. A "gift" is the only loophole in that, and then the duty falls to the gift giver to know they are not giving a "gift" to a prohibited person. IE, a known felon's girlfriend can not legally "gift" him a gun.
 
"I" agree with the above 2 posts.

However, I have read things here that indicate IF Y paid X back for the initial purchase, then it would be considered a straw purchase.

So... I've been meaning to ask.

No offense to any one else, I value his, and a few others', input particularly on this topic. DogtownTom is another one that I can think of...:eek:
 
jmr40 said:
Short answer. If the person paying for the gun knowingly buys for someone who could not legally own a gun it is a straw purchase.

If the person receiving the gun is legal, it is a legal gift.
Wrong answer!

The correct answer is in post 2. Doesn't anyone read or do any research before posting?

danez71 said:
Frank, can I get your opinion on this?


California

X and Y go to sporting goods store and pick out 1 hand gun each.

X and Y both fill out 4473 individually / respectively.

X pays store for both guns; X's and Y's hand gun (using credit card)

Both wait 10 Day period, pass back ground check etc.

Both return to store, finish paperwork, and pick up their respective hand gun.


Straw or no straw?

Would it matter if money ever exchanged between X and Y some amount of time after the initial purchase (does it matter if it was a gift or not?) ?
On the facts exactly as described, it does not appear to be a problem, although it's one of those situations in which the guy at the gun shop might baulk. It looks fishy, even though it's okay as long as everything happens exactly as described. X is either giving Y a gift of money to buy a gun (which Y keeps for himself) or loaning Y the money for Y to buy a gun for himself.

But if, for example, the after they each pick up their guns X and Y together go to another gun store where Y does a private party transfer to X of the gun Y just picked up (and X paid for), now that could be evidence that the prior transaction was a straw purchase. Those facts would be consistent with X and Y having made a prior agreement that Y would buy a gun for X, on behalf of X, as X's agent.

Of course that would not be conclusive evidence, merely facts from which the possibility of prior agreement could be inferred. But if --

  • X had previously posted on Calguns, "Y and I have worked out a cleaver way around the dumb 'one-handgun-a-month' rule since it doesn't apply to private party transfer."; and if

  • the two guns were identical models with consecutive serial numbers; and if

  • X collects consecutively numbered pairs of those types of pistol --
there would have a confluence of circumstantial evidence with which a federal prosecutor might be willing to try to convince a grand jury and a trial jury that Y lied about being the actual purchaser when he signed the 4473.
 
Originally Posted by danez71 ...........Straw or no straw?

Would it matter if money ever exchanged between X and Y some amount of time after the initial purchase (does it matter if it was a gift or not?) ?
Form 4473 Question 11a asks
"Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm listed on this form? Warning: you are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you....
While it's great that both fill out the 4473 and passed the background check, X paid for both guns......meaning Y IS NOT the actual buyer of his firearm......right?:scrutiny:

A dealer may suspect that buyer X is attempting to avoid the Multiple Sale of Handgun Report required under federal law by having his buddy Y sign for the other handgun.

Husband and wife...........might not arouse my suspicion.
Two guys unrelated to each other...................no sale from me.
 
dogtown tom said:
Form 4473 Question 11a asks
"Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm listed on this form? Warning: you are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you....
While it's great that both fill out the 4473 and passed the background check, X paid for both guns......meaning Y IS NOT the actual buyer of his firearm......right?...
Sorry, but that's an incomplete, and inaccurate, analysis. If Y keeps the gun, i. e., X was either paying for it as a gift to Y or X was loaning Y the money for the gun, Y is the actual transferee. Y would be the actual transferee because he is taking possession of the gun with the intention of keeping it for himself.

The problem would arise if Y were taking possession of the gun for the previously arranged purpose of transferring it to X. Under such circumstances Y would not be the actual transferee, but rather would be taking possession of the gun as X's agent. And thus, in that situation X would be the actual transferee/purchaser.

This is a subtle and technical matter which needs to be analyzed using law-of-agency principles.

dogtown tom said:
...A dealer may suspect that buyer X is attempting to avoid the Multiple Sale of Handgun Report required under federal law by having his buddy Y sign for the other handgun.

Husband and wife...........might not arouse my suspicion.
Two guys unrelated to each other...................no sale from me.
But that is the entirely practical way a dealer is likely to view the situation and why a dealer might very well baulk at the deal. And that would be his prerogative.

The thing is that, as you point out, it could be a straw purchase. Whether or not it is depends on the intent of the parties. But intent must be inferred from the circumstances, and the circumstances are ambiguous. The circumstances as described in post 5 are consistent on one hand a gift or loan of money (which would mean that Y is the actual transferee and thus there would be no straw purchase) or, on the other hand, with a prearranged scheme for Y to later transfer the gun to X (which would mean that Y is not the actual transferee making it an illegal straw purchase).

The source of the money is not necessarily conclusive. It is, however, evidence of intent. And when that evidence is ambiguous, the wise thing for an FFL to do would be to avoid the deal.

Note what it says in the instructions to Question 11.a. on the current Form 4473 (bolded emphasis in original, red, underlined emphasis added):
Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party. ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer ”NO” to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer “YES” to question 11.a. However, you may not transfer a firearm to any person you know or have reasonable cause to believe is prohibited under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g), (n), or (x). Please note: EXCEPTION: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b.

Two things are necessary for Mr. Jones (Y) to not be the actual transferee: (1) Mr. Smith (X) must have asked Mr. Jones (Y) to purchase a firearm for him (Mr. Smith/X); and (2) Mr. Smith (X) must have given (or promised to give) the money for the gun to Mr. Jones (Y). But in the situation described in post 5, we only know that the second condition had been satisfied. We have no information at all regarding the first condition.
 
Next time, tell wife to just give you the money for your birthday. Then, you go and purchase the firearm yourself. Also next time, don't write about it on a gun forum.
 
The situation is exactly as described in #5.

The store never thought twice about it over 20 yrs ago.

X still has it. Y sold it after a decade or so.

So it seems that it is legal but could be perceived as fishy.
 
Frank Ettin Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Form 4473 Question 11a asks
"Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm listed on this form? Warning: you are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you....

While it's great that both fill out the 4473 and passed the background check, X paid for both guns......meaning Y IS NOT the actual buyer of his firearm......right?...

Sorry, but that's an incomplete, and inaccurate, analysis.
Sorry, but it was a question, not an analysis. The clue is the ? at the end of the sentence.;)
 
"straw purchase" doesn't care where the money is coming from.

It =does= care about who is filling out the 4473 -vs- who is going to have possession of the gun. A "gift" is the only loophole in that, and then the duty falls to the gift giver to know they are not giving a "gift" to a prohibited person. IE, a known felon's girlfriend can not legally "gift" him a gun.
Yes, this is the key point. Or to restate, this is less a case of 'follow the money' as it is the case of intent and eligibility. However in the context of intent, there are so many fine lines and grey areas that it gets quite complex. The other half, or rather the issue of 'eligibility' is more firmly defined.
B
 
I have talked on the phone to my dealer about a gun and had him order it while my wife was standing in the shop in person. We hung up, she paid him. She picked it up four days later and the paperwork was in her name.

I have had people tell me it was a straw purchase since he knew it was for me.
 
As I read this thread I understand the law like this.
I go into a gun shop and buy a shotgun for my daughters birthday present .
I fill out 4473, pass background check, take gun home.
Give daughter gun on birthday. ( she is legal to own gun)
Not straw purchase.

Daughter wants a gun, daughter gives me money and ask me to buy
it for her. I go buy the gun, do the paper work, pass background check,
give gun to daughter next time I see her (Remember , she is legal to own guns)
This is a straw purchase.
 
Sorry for going off topic...
...however,
Very good stuff here, to REFERENCE:
Does this qualify as a "sticky"?

BTW, how DO threads become a "sticky"?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top