straw purchase?
- Thread starter mastershake4071
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DHJenkins
Member
If you give him the money for the gun, it's a straw purchase.
Of course, someone actually proving that the money you gave him was specifically for that purpose is an entirely different kettle of fish.
Of course, someone actually proving that the money you gave him was specifically for that purpose is an entirely different kettle of fish.
CoRoMo
Member
CWL... a thousand apologies, sir. I get tired of people mis-defining straw purchases, but you shouldn't have been lumped in with them. Your example is perfect.
It is all about intent at the time of purchase. My father would intend to own and keep the gun, but he is free to sell it later if he decides it isn't what he wants. He cannot purchase it with the intent to sell it. He has no FFL so he shouldn't be dealing in firearms in that way. Unless he makes it a little too well known what his intentions are, nobody will ever know, but it is still not legal.
Intent is next to impossible to prove, and this is usually a simple misunderstanding that innocent people aren't educated on. That is why this type of thing happens every day, and to no harm, the vast majority of the time.
Straw purchase laws... rather silly, don't you think?
It is all about intent at the time of purchase. My father would intend to own and keep the gun, but he is free to sell it later if he decides it isn't what he wants. He cannot purchase it with the intent to sell it. He has no FFL so he shouldn't be dealing in firearms in that way. Unless he makes it a little too well known what his intentions are, nobody will ever know, but it is still not legal.
Intent is next to impossible to prove, and this is usually a simple misunderstanding that innocent people aren't educated on. That is why this type of thing happens every day, and to no harm, the vast majority of the time.
Straw purchase laws... rather silly, don't you think?
Just look for a good used one, and buy it in a private sale. In Michigan, you must be 21 to purchase from a dealer, but can buy a handgun in a private sale at 18yrs old. Don't know WV laws, but they sound similar. Your Dad should go buy it for himself, and just hate it cause it kicks too hard....And sell the scary thing, in a few months
yeti
Member
I don't believe intent has much to do with it. If I walk into a gun shop, and they have Jeff Cooper's #1, Bren Ten sitting there for $100, and I know you want it and will gladly pay $8000 for it, I can purchase it, legally, with every intent to run right to your house and sell it to you. It is not illegal to buy a gun with every intention of selling it yourself. It is all about who is the actual purchaser of the gun.
But I agree, it is a silly law. If both parties are legal to own, posses and buy the gun, what does it matter who actually purchases it, or when the $ changes hands. If you give, or sell, or buy it for someone that can't have a gun, there are a boat load of laws that already cover that. It's simply a gun control law that is only about control.
CoRoMo
Member
Straw purchases and dealing in firearms are not exactly the same thing, but I'm pretty sure that you are wrong about intent with regards to selling the gun.
I'd ask some of the FFL holding members to field that one, but I've always read and heard that it is illegal to buy a gun with the intention of selling it. Buying a gun is supposed to be for the purpose of ownership. I'd really invite some of the dealers here to expand on this though because the dealership roll isn't something I'm up to speed on. My brother is applying for an FFL and we've been going round and round on little things like this.
Oh... I'd only give you double what you paid for that #1 Bren.
I'd ask some of the FFL holding members to field that one, but I've always read and heard that it is illegal to buy a gun with the intention of selling it. Buying a gun is supposed to be for the purpose of ownership. I'd really invite some of the dealers here to expand on this though because the dealership roll isn't something I'm up to speed on. My brother is applying for an FFL and we've been going round and round on little things like this.
Oh... I'd only give you double what you paid for that #1 Bren.
yeti
Member
I'm not talking about dealing in guns, I'm talking intent. If you buy and sell to often, yeah, they can come after you for dealing without an FFL. Just any given purchase, viewed all on it's own, what you intend to do with that gun, within legal limits, is not a factor. As long as you are the actual purchaser, what you intend to do with that gun is immaterial.
Finding #1 Bren,that would be a great, but Viltor/Fortis is brining it back.http://www.vltor.com/pistol.htm
Finding #1 Bren,that would be a great, but Viltor/Fortis is brining it back.
http://www.vltor.com/pistol.htm
earlthegoat2
Member
flashbacks of Kip Kinkel are rolling....
If your father gives a handgun as a gift to you that you can own under your state law it is perfectly legal.
If you give your father the money to go buy the gun for you because you are too young to purchase it, or otherwise not qualified, it is a straw purchase, and illegal for you and him.
There have been plenty of threads on this in Legal (it is a legal question after all) and the ATF even has guidance on giving firearms as gifts and that guidance, with links, has been posted in many of those threads.
If you give your father the money to go buy the gun for you because you are too young to purchase it, or otherwise not qualified, it is a straw purchase, and illegal for you and him.
There have been plenty of threads on this in Legal (it is a legal question after all) and the ATF even has guidance on giving firearms as gifts and that guidance, with links, has been posted in many of those threads.
Shytheed Dumas
Member
Your dad can give you the gun as a gift - and you can buy a toothpick from him for $500.
Okay, so $500 is way more than fair market value on a toothpick? So buy the furniture in your bedroom today that you're going to take with you when you move out one day... Maybe he charges you $500 rent for a month to teach you a lesson on leaving the lights on and using too much hot water.
Okay, so $500 is way more than fair market value on a toothpick? So buy the furniture in your bedroom today that you're going to take with you when you move out one day... Maybe he charges you $500 rent for a month to teach you a lesson on leaving the lights on and using too much hot water.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
The BATFE regs are still, repeat, still, stickied at the top of the Legal Forum page.
NavyLCDR
member
As stated above, the legality of the final recipient of the firearm to possess firearms is COMPLETELY IRRELEVENT to the concept of straw purchases.
Straw purchases is buying a gun on behalf of someone else period. Straw purchase stops there. Straw purchase usually involves receiving some compensation for either the gun itself or for the act of buying the gun.
Furnishing a firearm to an ineligible person, either as a gift or as a sale is a completely seperate issue from Straw purchase.
A straw purchase and furnishing a firearm to an ineligible person can occur during the same act, or can occur as seperate acts, or each act can occur singly without the other act being committed at all.
Buying the gun for the son, with the son's money, is straw purchase.
Giving a gift of a gun to the son, who is ineligible to POSSESS that gun (notice, not purchase, but possess), is furnishing a firearm to an inelligible person.
Buying the gun for the son, with the son's money, and the son is also ineligible to POSSESS that gun, is BOTH a straw purchase AND furnishing a firearm to an inelligible person.
Any other person, obviously, may be subsitituted for the son in these cases.
TEDDY
Member
there was
there was an interesting situation in the past a person became a police officer .he was under 21.he could not buy a pistol so his mother bought it for him.it was legal.because they both were not criminals.
however my feeling on this thread is some like the law banning people from getting guns.but ok for them.as I came from a different time I have a much different outlook.and also that time was when it did not matter if you had a conviction.you could buy,and no one asked you questions.I bought when I was 13.and I always had pistols.
there was an interesting situation in the past a person became a police officer .he was under 21.he could not buy a pistol so his mother bought it for him.it was legal.because they both were not criminals.
however my feeling on this thread is some like the law banning people from getting guns.but ok for them.as I came from a different time I have a much different outlook.and also that time was when it did not matter if you had a conviction.you could buy,and no one asked you questions.I bought when I was 13.and I always had pistols.
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