Went Condition Orange just now

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Another thought here aside from the fact that OP broke some type of law by intentionally displaying his weapon as a threat...that put that gentleman within his rights (at least here in kentucky) to shoot or otherwise neutralize (ram with the car) the OP because there was an act which very reasonably made that person feel that their life was in danger.

I'm not saying that this is the case here, but in many similar circumstances Johnny B Good carries a gun for protection, and gets a bit of a false sense of security because now that the good guy has a gun hidden under a coat, in the waistband, without a chambered round because they don't want to shoot their foot (or worse) off. Now Johnny B Good feels like he is bulletproof because some chucklehead messing with him gets shot...true enough...but what many many times has happened is that people let that gun change their actions. They become some warrior in their minds and choose to stand and fight when they should still be looking to duck and cover. In this case the gun may or may not have influenced OP to stay at the car longer or tuck tail and get inside of the office. A gun should not change a person's actions, it should only change the outcome IF the outcome reasonably can come down to only 1 man walking away still breathing. Realistically a person should take a beating before a gun comes into play. If your on the ground not fighting and your still getting kicked in the ribs and head then by all means shoot the guy who you think isn't going to stop until your dead, but until that point gunplay is not justified. Obviously the introduction by your opponent of a weapon is a good reason to make some lead fly, but again, it has to get to that point. DO NOT LET THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE A GUN BECOME A MENTAL STUMBLING BLOCK. You are carrying a variety of tools. Fists, mouth, feet, brain, gun, knife, keys, pepper spray, umbrella, hell even an orange in a walmart sack makes a fair sap...make sure your not using a sledgehammer when your need is for a screwdriver.
 
I know a couple of posters think I was wrong to take the OP to task for honking his horn, all I can say to that is "Look how it worked out for him."

Had the OP not honked his horn none of the other events would have ever happened end of story.

I can't speak for anyone else but when I am carrying a gun it it incumbent upon me to go out of my way to avoid confrontation because I can't afford to run into that one guy who is going to take affront because I honked my horn.


The above is all the more true if I'm carrying a firearm in violation of my employer's stated policy. It's already been stated that what the OP did was a crime in most jurisdictions. Maybe he can explain away an hour in the parking lot filing a report (unless his employer asks for a copy)but how does he explain getting arrested for felony menacing in the parking lot?

IMO the OP got very lucky
 
I would say that your "intuition" was a clear example of the "The Gift of Fear" (a really good book).

You took a risk "brandishing" your firearm, but you knew deep down that this wasn't the type of guy who invites the attention of police.
 
I don't see anything in your quoted section that backs up your point. It specifically states that brandishing a weapon in order to induce fear in another is illegal, which is exactly what the OP did
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Does it make any difference that the OP was on private property in a privately owned parking lot. I don't know I'm just asking.

All in all I think your best bet would have been to enter your workplace and be armed with a phone and a good pair of eyes, leaving the pistol as a last ditch effort for survival. A call to the PD for a suspicious person would have been the best solution here with a good place to fortify yourself.

I can sit here and play couch quarterback, but I honestly don't know that I wouldn't have done the same thing. But with hindsight, next time go inside and keep in mind that there is a person out there who now knows where you work, when, and that you are armed.
 
Not knowing the exact situation beyond the OP's description I can't say I fault him for his "brandishing", statistics we gun owners often cite regarding the use of firearms to avert a crime show brandishing/exposing a firearm to be an effective means to repel a possible attack.
It's impossible for me to say that the threat the OP perceived warranted his actions but to act as though one should wait for an attack that may seem imminent at the moment is foolish.
As usual an additional 1000 words from an OP would probably clarify the situation and prove his motives or make him to be a fool.
We all take on additional burden by going armed in public, that doesn't oblige us to take the first round however.
 
Well, Frank and others have explained well the legal ramifications of shifting from "concealed weapon" to "exposed weapon" to inspire someone to change course, which a judge or jury would likely interpret as "intimidation." So I won't pile on that. I respect your spidey sense, but it would be hard to sell it in court. What I will say is, we only know the OP's side of the story. There are a thousand ways in which the other guy's side of the story would be more compelling. He was trying to find an address. He was looking at a map. He had a job interview where the OP works and wanted to ask directions (hence the open window). Even if these scenarios were false, and the other driver's real motivation was nefarious, the prosecutor could make them sound true. In court, the simple narrative is quickly subsumed in the complex vagaries of a thousand facts or claims. The casting for the roles of hero, victim, and bad guy is not determined until the play is over. Glad it worked out for you this time. Be safe and carry wisely.
 
Either way, had he called the cops, he would have had no idea which suite of the building I was in (the entrance is to a hallway with a ton of locations) and it wasn't captured on security cameras or witnessed by others (I know where the cameras are and my car was shielding me from them). It would be hearsay and they'd have no grounds to get a warrant. "No victim no crime" as the police put it. Yes, I put it on the forum, but again, they'd have to have a warrant to determine my identity.

This guy was acting suspiciously. Driving through the parking lot at less than walking speed, approaching me, with his driver window down, and looking directly at me. Add to the fact that he had followed me. I had reason to be fearful. Additionally, I could not have accessed my carry piece without doing what I did anyway, so I could justify it to police or a jury. I was simply getting prepared for the worst. Had I wanted to brandish, I would have pulled the .45 out of my car.

At the very least, I suspect I saved myself from a tire slashing. At the worst, possibly a murder. Either way, this guy was acting unusually and in a manner that warranted caution.

Edit: Let me give you an idea of the area. The right turn in question was a segregated right turn. As in, there was a median separating the right turn area from the rest of the road. So one person could completely block it and the person behind them could not escape without backing up. The place he stopped dead later was in front of railroad tracks which were to a siding. Now, I understand someone briefly stopping to verify there was no train coming. But he would. not. move. He stopped for around 30 seconds. Yes, I did honk to try to get his attention; fully justifiable in that situation, and I didn't want to pull around him and risk an accident if he suddenly started moving. But still nothing and I pulled around him. Then he immediately started moving, very slowly, but just fast enough to keep me in view.

I pulled around back, and parked. I needed a little extra time than usual to get inside because I needed to grab some ibuprofen for a headache. All the while I'm watching over my shoulder. I finish, and then wait and watch him slowly cruise in and start heading for me with his driver side window down (driver side facing me). He was about 50 feet away when I lifted my coat and shirt because at that stage he was acting very strangely and I feared a driveby. And otherwise I'd have had NO time to react.

He slowly turned around and left the area and I breathed a sigh of relief. I went back inside but kept an ear out for trouble.
 
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Well, I could justify it to police....
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That would likely be an uphill battle if you have not been the first to report it.

And the police are not the decision authority.
 
WardenWolf said:
Either way, had he called the cops, he would have had no idea which suite of the building I was in (the entrance is to a hallway with a ton of locations) and it wasn't captured on security cameras or witnessed by others (I know where the cameras are and my car was shielding me from them)....
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Maybe and maybe not. In any case, "getting away with" something is not the same as "best practices."

WardenWolf said:
...It would be hearsay and they'd have no grounds to get a warrant....
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People have some very strange, and wrong, notions about the law. Hearsay can support issuance of a search warrant, and indeed warrants are often issued on the basis of hearsay.

WardenWolf said:
...I could justify it to police or a jury....
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Maybe and maybe not. You're lucky you didn't need to try.

WardenWolf said:
...Had I wanted to brandish,....
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You did brandish. That is clear based on your description of what happened.
 
I am interested in why the OP decided to post this on the Internet. What is your motivation for posting the incident?
 
Trunk Monkey said:
I know a couple of posters think I was wrong to take the OP to task for honking his horn, all I can say to that is "Look how it worked out for him."

Had the OP not honked his horn none of the other events would have ever happened end of story.

I can't speak for anyone else but when I am carrying a gun it it incumbent upon me to go out of my way to avoid confrontation because I can't afford to run into that one guy who is going to take affront because I honked my horn.


The above is all the more true if I'm carrying a firearm in violation of my employer's stated policy. It's already been stated that what the OP did was a crime in most jurisdictions. Maybe he can explain away an hour in the parking lot filing a report (unless his employer asks for a copy)but how does he explain getting arrested for felony menacing in the parking lot?

IMO the OP got very lucky
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Life is full of woulda-coulda and there-but-for-the-grace-of-God-go-I events. We do the best we can and move on.

A horn is just another tool on a car. Like most things, how you use it has a lot to do with how people perceive the person using it. And then there is the fact that some people are just aggressive sociopaths who will take violent offense at the drop of the hat.

I'm not going to live my life worrying if some person who is sitting through a green light will go psycho on me for a toot of my horn to focus his attention.
 
I've had similar intuitions and experiences, and what I usually do if possible, and since OC is also legal here, is I expose it prior to exiting my vehicle and coming into public view. Doing it in this manner makes it nothing more than OC, rather than going from CC to OC while in public view, which could possibly be considered brandishing, IMO.

Ask yourself this question, if you did the same thing in view of an LEO, what do you think their perception would be, and would you have done so knowing that an LEO may see you intentionally displaying like that?

GS
 
WardenWolf said:
Either way, had he called the cops, he would have had no idea which suite of the building I was in.
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They wouldn't have to. They had your car and license plate #

WardenWolf said:
At the very least, I suspect I saved myself from a tire slashing. At the worst, possibly a murder.
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...and again, you know this how? IMHO, At most you probably would have gotten a tongue lashing and maybe the finger for being a dick and blowin' your horn. At the least, the guy may have just asked for directions.


WardenWolf said:
I pulled around back, and parked. I needed a little extra time than usual to get inside because I needed to grab some ibuprofen for a headache. All the while I'm watching over my shoulder.
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......a change in your story from your OP.

WardenWolf said:
At this point, I'm keeping an eye out and seeing if he's following me. And while I can't tell for certain, he definitely witnessed the parking lot I pulled into. I parked around back, which is where our business is, and step out of my car. Something tells me to wait a couple of minutes.

Sure enough, about 2 minutes later, he comes cruising in super slowly.
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I suspect the reason you assumed you would be followed was because of what went down between you two with the stoppage and the horn blowing. Why else would the guy follow you? Again, why were you suspicious of the guy being stopped in the first place? He could have been lost, had car problems or something else going on. He may have been afraid to get out of his car because as you said, it's a bad side of town. Still, without any creditable evidence, he was a murderer and you were his victim. You didn't have 30 seconds of time when the dude was stopped in front of you, but you could wait for two minutes for him to follow you and confront him? As you said, the guy did not know where in the building or even what building you were located in, therefore, he could not have followed you and murdered you just because he saw your car parked outside. He did not know there were no security cameras in the parking lot, thus he probably wouldn't have slashed your tires. Still you waited outside for a confrontation. Why?

Sorry, but initiating a situation knowing it could escalate into roadrage, waiting for the guy instead of leaving and going to a place of safety and then brandishing a firearm and boasting on a public forum of how you scared off a BG and thwarted a possible murder by doing so, just screams the words "Mall Ninja" to me.
 
Technically in most places that's brandishing...but he probably won't report it. Sounds like the type not to friendly with the police.
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Unless you have anti-gun police and prosecutors, it depends on what YOU call it.

Never say, "I showed him my gun." That IS brandishing (in many states.)

Say, "I was trembling and in fear of my life and started to draw my gun when he backed off."
 
rhinoh said:
My first thought was- jeez! Get a coffee pot at work!
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lol, yah, that's what I was kind of thinking too! Anyhow, it's a difficult circumstance to be in, from the posts I've read here, the OP is damned if he does present his pistol, and might very well be damned if he doesn't present his pistol.

Me, I'd probably have just walked on inside and then looked out the window to see if this goofball was indeed following me. If he stops at my car, then I know he's probably up to no good and then I might try and get his plate number, if I can. Otherwise, I'm not so sure I try and confront the guy.
 
Something to think about here as people post on issues they feel strongly about:


THR is a place where we can share such encounters and LEARN from them.

The goal in each and every (potentially) violent encounter should be to look back on the chain of events and figure out how the encounter either could have been avoided or could have been handled better.

This includes recognizing that even though things went well (nobody got hurt, killed, or arrested), there may have been circumstances that, if pursued, COULD have landed the good guy in jail.

Tools in the toolbox, gentlemen. The more tools we have at our disposal, the better prepared we are to work with what life throws at us. This is part of that, whether we're the OP or a fly-by non-member reading this 5 years from now.
 
One thing a couple of people have touched on -- he was in a car, and if you had a cell phone, you could brandish your cell phone, as you called 911 and reported his license number.
 
I'm not going to live my life worrying if some person who is sitting through a green light will go psycho on me for a toot of my horn to focus his attention.
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No one is asking you to. I'm telling what I would have done. The OP found that guy and even though the incident ended without a negative outcome I bet the hassle the OP incurred from that one little toot of the horn wasn't worth it
 
Either way, had he called the cops, he would have had no idea which suite of the building I was in (the entrance is to a hallway with a ton of locations) and it wasn't captured on security cameras or witnessed by others (I know where the cameras are and my car was shielding me from them). It would be hearsay and they'd have no grounds to get a warrant. "No victim no crime" as the police put it. Yes, I put it on the forum, but again, they'd have to have a warrant to determine my identity.
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Yeah, he's probably too dumb to have shown them your car, which he got a good look at while following you and seeing you park

They'd have never thought to check the registration to find out who you are

Testimony isn't hearsay
 
Posted by JB357MAG:
Thugs don't want anything to do with the police.

Unless I have actually fired my gun, my lips are sealed.
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Thugs? Thugs? That's making quite an assumption.

And the assumption that even "thugs" will not report your display of a weapon is not supportable. For more on that, Massad Ayoob...

...speaking of whom, he will tell you to always be the first to report the display of your firearm. That has nothing to do with whether you have fired it.
 
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