WWII-era brass

The Alaskan · May 14, 2015

Is WWII era 30-06 M2 brass reloadable? I expect that it will be corrosive primer, but does that mean not reloadable as well? (i.e. does corrosive = Berdan)

Someone in my area has 1k rounds that she "thinks" is WWII ammo. I'm hoping to get a chance to go take a look at it and make an offer on it, but I don't want it if it's not reloadable.

anothernewb · May 14, 2015

I wouldn't be worried about reloading it, as long as it's in good shape. brass is brass. I have a few 45's that have wcc stamps on them from the 40's and some G's from the twin cities armory plant. They've been through the ringer for decades with no issues.

ReloaderFred · May 14, 2015

It will be headstamped with the year of manufacture, which would be 42, 43, 44 and 45 for the war years for U.S. manufactured ammunition. It will also have two or three letters indicating the manufacturer (Den, EC, WCC, etc.).

The priming compound isn't corrosive, which is a misnomer as far as ammunition is concerned. It's hygroscopic, which means at attracts water, which causes rust very quickly if not cleaned right away. And you clean the firearm with hot soapy water, dry thoroughly and then oil it. If U.S. made, they will be Boxer primed, but they'll be crimped in place.

The biggest problem is how it's been stored. If stored properly, it will be shootable, but the necks may split from metal fatigue.

I've pulled down WW II ammunition with split necks to recover the bullets, and in some cases I was able to reuse the powder, which was normally IMR 4895, but the charge varied from lot to lot. If I had all the same lot, I would pull 10 cases and weigh the individual charges. If they were the same, then I would normally drop back a full grain and load them in newer .30-06 cases. The bullets will also have a tar sealant, which I removed in solvent or Simple Green, and then tumbled.

Hope this helps.

Fred

anothernewb · May 14, 2015

http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=headstampcodes

The Alaskan · May 14, 2015

Okay, so this helps somewhat. So...to make sure I'm on the same page...US manufactured WWII ammo uses Boxer (i.e. "reloadable") cases? (As opposed to Berdan, 2-hole, primers that are not reloadable.)

What I'm going for here are the reloadable cases. If these are shoot'em and toss the brass, then I don't really want them at any price.

Thanks.

Jim Watson · May 14, 2015

Yes. US WWII GI is Boxer primed.

d'Artagnan · May 14, 2015

Having processed 1200 rounds of DEN 42 and DEN 43 30.06 cases:
First, use a Lee hand depriming punch and expect that in 3-5 primers per 100 cases the base of the primer cup will separate from the walls, which remain in the primer pocket. Trying to remove them seriously buggers the primer pockets, just toss them in your recycle bucket. Then boil the deprimed cases to dissolve any corrosive salts and rinse. Dry in the sun or on your furnace vents. Anneal the cases. Run the primer pockets through a Dillon 600 primer pocket swagger -- the RCBS tools are way too much work. Clean the primer pockets, run the bases over steel wool to remove any corrosion...etc.,etc.
If you haven't gotten it by now, it's ALOT of work. Do you really want to do it? Do you need 1000 30.06 cases?

The Alaskan · May 14, 2015

Thanks for the info, folks,

Yes, that's a crap load of work. Do I NEED 1k 30-06 cases? Shrug. No, but my goal is to have 5k rounds loaded and available. That should let me shoot and reload for a very long time. (Figuring 5 firings per case...25k rounds equivalent...pretty much the remainder of my life.)

Stuck primers and the need to resize the primer pockets I get.

I don't get the annealing or the steel wool. I understand that annealing prevents work-hardening of the metal, but that is a process I have never had to do. Is this specific to mil-surp ammo for some reason?

Steel wool to remove contaminants. Shouldn't the elaborate cleaning and boiling take care of that?

d'Artagnan · May 14, 2015

Annealing: It wasn't until 1929 that American ammunition manufacturers started to anneal the brass to increase its self life. Before that, a couple years after it was manufactured the brass would split -- usually at the neck but also at the base. The cases of WW2-era ammo probably will not split the first time you fire it because it was annealed when manufactured. Even after annealing, however, brass hardens over time causing it to split, just like work harding causes. After full resizing your once-fired WW2-era brass, without reannealing it has at least a 50-50 chance of cracking on the second firing. If you want to reload it 5 times and/or keep it for another 50 years, you'll want to anneal it. I did 1200 by hand -- the definition of tedious. None of my reannealed cases ever split. I've reannealed Polte (German) once-fired 8mm brass cases from as far back as 1935 and successfully reloaded them several times. On the other hand, I've annealed unfired pre-1928 Remington cases and had them split the first time they were fired anyway.
Corrosion: Boiling and rinsing the cases dissolves and removes the corrosive salts caused by the firing or chemical breakdown of the priming compound, typically potassium perchlorate breaking down to the very corrosive salt potassium chloride. Any existing corrosion -- often around the primer whether fired or not -- will be stopped but has to be removed the hard way -- steel wool. Tumbling will not remove the corroded areas. And, by the way, any corrosion on the necks or sides of those cases -- weakening the case wall -- alone is reason enough to toss them into the recycle bucket.

The Alaskan · May 14, 2015

It's KOREAN AMMO

It's Korean. I saw a photo on facebook just now. Bright, shiny ammo loaded into en bloc clips packed in bandoliers and in 50 cal ammo cans. I couldn't see the actual headstamp in the photos, but there is a white decal on the ammo can with English printing that says IPS Korea 05/03/05 11:43am. 384 Rds per can. Is that the same thing as the PS head stamped Korean ammo? I hear that that is all non-corrosive and boxer primed.

rcmodel · May 14, 2015

I know nothing?

But if it's 1995 Korean, it's NATO.

And if it's NATO it's brass case, boxer primed, non- corrosive.

Should be good stuff if the price is right.

rc

The Alaskan · May 15, 2015

Thanks RC.

So, looks like I'll be getting 384 rounds packed in 8 bandoliers with 48 en bloc clips for $300. That's 78 cents/round with free clips and band-o's. Did I do good?

Swampman · May 16, 2015

Originally posted by :rcmodel
But if it's 1995 Korean, it's NATO.

And if it's NATO it's brass case, boxer primed, non- corrosive.

While I agree that it's probably non corrosive and Boxer primed, I'm not sure I agree with how you came to that conclusion.

With a date of 05/03/05 why would it be 1995 manufacture?
And why would it be NATO ammo?
30-06 was never an official NATO caliber and South Korea was never a NATO member.

Even if it was NATO ammo, why would that mean it was Boxer primed?
Other than US or Canadian made ammo, most of the 7.62x51 NATO I've seen has been Berdan primed.

45lcshooter · May 16, 2015

The only brass I shoot out of my Garand is 1940s. If your unsure if its berdan primed, take the bullet and powder out and look down, very easy. Some times over the years the primers get a but of corrosion on them, if its super bad, then I replace it, but if its a little bit, I sling the bullet down range.

joem1945 · May 16, 2015

I bought a few thousand unfired 30-06 cases and bullets. Cases were deprimed and had tar sealer in the necks. Dumped the cases in 5 gal bucket of gas (outside of course) and let sit for a day. Same for bullets. Tumbled them, swedged and loaded them. Some necks split on first firing but I have plenty anyway.

kerreckt · May 16, 2015

I hope WW2 era brass is reloadable. I have a bunch of 30.06 from 1942,1943, and 1944, that I have been reloading for the past 30 years. It is very good brass.

The Alaskan · May 16, 2015

So this has taken a twisting road. I initially title this WWII-era brass because the original internet post was for WWII era ammo.Turns out, the girl didn't know what she had. A photo of the ammo can, as described above indicated Korean ammo.

Now that I have the ammo here at home...

What I have is Korean ammo head stamped PS 82. Packed in bandoliers marked with lot numbers 115-003 (or some other three digit suffix.), and loaded into en bloc clips from Borg-Warner, Springfield Armory, and Dominion Canada.

I've randomly spot checked about 10% of the rounds individually. They're not "shiny new," but I don't see any black or green spots anywhere, either. Primes have red sealant.

I found a list (from a decade ago) of PS 75 head stamped ammo that was blowing up guns, but I can't find anything, positive or negative, about this PS 82 head stamp. (I assume that means 1982 production date.)

Is it safe to put loaded ammo into a tumbler with polishing media? I"m thinking about going through every single round, individually visually inspecting, and then putting them in batches into the tumbler, inspecting hem again when they come out, and then putting them back into the clips. I've never tumbled/polished loaded ammo before, so I don't know if there is a danger of one bullet tip striking a primer with enough force to set it off. Seems unlikely, but I'm no expert.

All in all...I think I did okay.I paid 78 cents per round but I got 8 bandoliers and 48 clips for free. Comparing prices to ammogarand.com, I got about $500 worht of stuff for $300, and that is not taking into account that no one will ship loaded ammo to Alaska or the shipping costs of the clips and bandoliers.

Correction...I did okay as long it's good, safe ammo and the brass will reload at least 5 or 6 times.

Sunray · May 16, 2015

Poong San made Korean stuff is reported as bad, period.
http://pnwbands.com/m1garand/PS75.html

The Alaskan · May 16, 2015

Sunray said:
Poong San made Korean stuff is reported as bad, period.
http://pnwbands.com/m1garand/PS75.html

Yeah I found that while doing some research. Thanks for sharing.

That's a different head stamp than what I have and different lot numbers. Even among ammo with that same (PS75) head stamp with different lot numbers, there have been a lot of people shooting a lot of ammo with no problems. I haven't seen anything about PS 82 anywhere.

That said...I am going to go through and inspect everything as best as I can and proceed with caution. (As one should with all surplus ammo.)

30-06 ammo is far too expensive to just throw it all away because of a couple bad lots.

Slamfire · May 16, 2015

I found a list (from a decade ago) of PS 75 head stamped ammo that was blowing up guns, but I can't find anything, positive or negative, about this PS 82 head stamp. (I assume that means 1982 production date.)

Problems associated with old gunpowder are the primary risk associated with old surplus ammunition. I have extensively written about this in this forum. Nitric acid gas is released from old gunpowder, that causes case splits, and other issues. If a case has a brass flaw, nitric acid gas in the case will reveal it. Then, combustion pressures rise with old gunpowder. Old gunpowder has blown up lots of guns.

There is a lot of denial with this, regardless of those whose false expectations are that their stash of ammunition or powder will be perfect forever (they are also under the false expectation that they will be there forever to use it!) understand old ammunition has its risks.

Probably the least risky thing to do is pull the bullets and dump the powder. Save the bullets and cases. Look for signs of inside case corrosion and corrosion on the bullet.

The riskiest path is to shoot the ammunition. If you ever notice high pressure indications, I would stop immediately.

The Alaskan · May 16, 2015

I'll take all of that into consideration. In any even, "scrapping" the ammo is not an option. Until you have lived in a place where ammunition is either completely unobtainium or so prohibitively expensive so as to make shooting and gun ownership an economic impossibility, you can't understand the dire need to take advantage of every opportunity to obtain ammunition.

I simply cannot "pull the ammo apart and dump the powder." Replacement gun powder is simply not available. Yes, I will keep the cases, and, as the months go buy, once in a great while I might get randomly lucky and find maybe one or two pounds of 4895 on a shelf in a store. If I pull this ammo apart, it could be a year before I have powder with which to reload it-possibly longer. (It has now been two years since I was able to buy gun powder.)

Alaska is the absolute worse place to be a gun owner. (Short of perhaps DC or NYC-here, I am at least allowed to HAVE a gun and look at it on weekends.)

Bexar · May 16, 2015

SlamFire1 said:
Problems associated with old gunpowder are the primary risk associated with old surplus ammunition. I have extensively written about this in this forum. Nitric acid gas is released from old gunpowder, that causes case splits, and other issues. If a case has a brass flaw, nitric acid gas in the case will reveal it. Then, combustion pressures rise with old gunpowder. Old gunpowder has blown up lots of guns.

There is a lot of denial with this, regardless of those whose false expectations are that their stash of ammunition or powder will be perfect forever (they are also under the false expectation that they will be there forever to use it!) understand old ammunition has its risks.

Probably the least risky thing to do is pull the bullets and dump the powder. Save the bullets and cases. Look for signs of inside case corrosion and corrosion on the bullet.

The riskiest path is to shoot the ammunition. If you ever notice high pressure indications, I would stop immediately.

I don't think it's nitric acid but nitrous acid. A different beast. Nitrous acid will eventually attack the copper and weaken it.

I'll try to find Officer's Wife excellent treatise of this on a different thread.

I stand corrected...it is nitric acid.

Officer's Wife post on another thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9895102&highlight=nitrous#post9895102

WWII-era brass

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