‘Guns in Restaurants/Bars’ legislation

[danez71]

The flaw with the car keys analogy is that the car keys are not the car.

Car keys dont plow into a bus bench full of people killing them; the car does. (with someone opperating it of course)


A more accurate comparision would be car keys to a loaded magazine or cylinder but no gun.

The gun, or car, is not functional (for the most part realistically) with-out the keys or loaded cylinder or magazine.

Put loaded mag or cylinder into the gun...or... keys into the ignition, the machine becomes functional/operational.

Personally, I do agree with the general sentiment.

I feel, if you fail a sobriety test, you shouldnt be carrying a loaded gun in a public place.

There are even flaws with that though. Is it the road side test for example or based on the BAC % ?

Some people can drink one beer and not exceed the BAC but be wasted and shouldnt be playing Twister let alone driving a car.

 

[Owen Sparks]

I worked as a bouncer in a bar for five years and I can tell you that the vast majority can handle alcohol. They would have a few and go home without incident. Trouble almost always came from the same few people who could not hold their liquor, either that or some youngster who had little experience with drinking and over did it. People who drink regularly know what to expect and when to quit. We used to dread New Year’s eve because it was "armature night" when a lot of people who normally did not drink went out and had one too many. Even then most problems were not related to violence but every once in a while we had to deal with the sort of person who gets mean when they are drunk. This is probably only about 2% of the population but if you have a big enough crowd there usually will be several of them and they will find each other.

 

[Agsalaska]

I am going to play devils advocate for a second. First, as a disclaimer, I dont believe in CCW laws because I do not believe the state needs to grant us the right the consitution has already taken care of. You should be able to carry a gun anywhere.

That being said, Liability of business owners is a legitimate issue that does need to be addressed in some areas. And if it is not addressed allowing guns in bars can result in higher liability insurance and lawyer fees for those business owners. They deal with it already when they are sued after a guy leaves the bar and kills someone under the influence. Never mind the fact that it might have been an hour later, or the guy was drunk when he arrived and was not served, or the guy only had three beers but was legally intoxicated, etc. A similar situation with a gun could pose the same problem. Innocence surely does not free one of expense.

Of course that is not an argument or should not be used to restrict your right to carry a gun in a bar or restaurant. But it also does not make it an issue that should not be addressed.

 

[Salmoneye]

I worked as a bouncer in a bar for five years and I can tell you that the vast majority can handle alcohol. They would have a few and go home without incident. Trouble almost always came from the same few people who could not hold their liquor, either that or some youngster who had little experience with drinking and over did it. People who drink regularly know what to expect and when to quit. We used to dread New Year’s eve because it was "armature night" when a lot of people who normally did not drink went out and had one too many. Even then most problems were not related to violence but every once in a while we had to deal with the sort of person who gets mean when they are drunk. This is probably only about 2% of the population but if you have a big enough crowd there usually will be several of them and they will find each other.

You are wise...

I'll one up you, though...

I bounced for a couple of years in a biker bar here in Vermont where there is no 'license' to carry...I was not the only one armed, and it was not the bikers that carried that were the problem...Only issues other than an occasional pop to the nose among friends, came from the overflow from the 'college' bar across the street...People that did not want to stand in line to get in there, would see the lights and hear the band, so they would come over...Nothing worse than an 'amateur' all puffed up in front of his friends...

Having grown up here, and having worked bars for years, I do not understand the abject fear of many over carrying in bars and restaurants...

 

[JohnBT]

Drinking while carrying in a restaurant must be okay, at least if you are a law enforcement officer or Virginia commonwealth's attorney.

"J3. No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises. A person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of such a restaurant or club and consumes alcoholic beverages is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. However, nothing in this subsection shall apply to a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer."

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

 

[Loosedhorse]

Some people can drink one beer and not exceed the BAC but be wasted and shouldnt be playing Twister let alone driving a car.

True. And others can be above 0.08% and driving well. Arbitrary is arbitrary: makes enforcement easier.

The flaw with the car keys analogy is that the car keys are not the car.

Right. All analogies are flawed.

Tell you what: just me personally, but I would have no problem with a law (or a bar policy) that said you can carry and drink, but it has to be OC and in a level 3 holster. That way other drunks can't get at it--and you have to go through a few maneuvers to get at it, too.

Closer to the car keys analogy this way. Thoughts?

 

[danez71]

True. And others can be above 0.08% and driving well. Arbitrary is arbitrary: makes enforcement easier.Right. All analogies are flawed.

Tell you what: just me personally, but I would have no problem with a law (or a bar policy) that said)you can carry and drink, but it has to be OC and in a level 3 holster. That way other drunks can't get at it--and you have to go through a few maneuvers to get at it, too.

Closer to the car keys analogy this way. Thoughts?

I wasnt meaning to be critical. Sorry if I came across that way.

I have mixed feelings because I just dont know how to go about it to make a 'one size fits all' law.

Speaking for my self, I could 1 beer with dinner and be fine. I could drink a 2beers with dinner and not want to drive right after but still make rational decisions... such as not wanting to drive right after the 2 beers. I wouldn't feel comfortable driving even though I'd be below the .08%.

I can get drunk and still make rational decisions.. other than getting drunk in the first place.(LOL) And I'm an easy going guy whether drinking or not. Others start getting temperamental, etc.


I guess the most logical answer I could come up with base it on BAC of .08% but I know there are real flaws with that.

One size fits all really stinks.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I have mixed feelings because I just dont know how to go about it to make a 'one size fits all' law.

Make it a crime to negligently discharge a firearm with a higher fine/sentence for under the influence and another higher step in fine/sentence for intoxicated, according to the same BAC standards as driving? And if someone is harmed make it aggrevated assault, or someone is killed make it manslaughter, just like with driving. Seems pretty one size fits all to me...punish the act instead of banning the object.

 

[Art Eatman]

As far as a business owner's rights, all he has to do is post a proper sign which means, "Leave your guns outside, boy!" Which is why I have a problem with the opinion of the guy cited in the opening post. (Shrug.)

Easy enough to do something like the Manila Hotel did in 1949: A sign at the front door read, "Please check all firearms." A Sikh guard would take your weapon, write out a receipt, and go back to his nap. You went on in to the bar or restaurant or whatever. Hey, good PR for a night club!

 

[Salmoneye]

Easy enough to do something like the Manila Hotel did in 1949: A sign at the front door read, "Please check all firearms." A Sikh guard would take your weapon, write out a receipt, and go back to his nap. You went on in to the bar or restaurant or whatever. Hey, good PR for a night club!

And I feel that indeed to be the purview of any owner of any establishment, from bars to lumber yards...

The 'State' should stay the hell out of it...

 

[Loosedhorse]

I wasnt meaning to be critical. Sorry if I came across that way.

You came across as making perfectly valid points, which I tried to address. I have no illusions of knowing the answers, and I do appreciate careful responses, such as yours. So, thanks!

 

[s fox]

Because the media is run by IDIOTS.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Some people are dangerous when they are sober yet there are no laws against being mean or stupid.

 

[danez71]

You came across as making perfectly valid points, which I tried to address. I have no illusions of knowing the answers, and I do appreciate careful responses, such as yours. So, thanks!

Thank you. I find a lot of your posts worth reading and find myself thinking a little deeper from the perspective/info you bring up.

Because the media is run by IDIOTS.

1st post on THR. Welcome.

Some people are dangerous when they are sober yet there are no laws against being mean or stupid.

There are laws addressing various degrees of meaness; from bullying laws to harassment, to letting (or encouraging) your dog to poop on your neighbors doorstep, to coercion, intimidation ect.

Since there are laws the address that, at what IQ level do you think we should start making laws against and start taking away rights?

Terman's Stanford-Binet Fourth Revision classification:
Intelligence Classification

114 and above = Genius and near genius
101 - 113 = Above average intelligence
84 - 100 = Normal or average intelligence
68 - 84 = Dullness
52 - 68 = Borderline deficiency
Below 52 = Mental Deficiency

I'm not trying to pick on you personally. I'm picking on the type of comment.


While these 'one liner' type comments made by so many may seem clever, they really arent. Many of those type of comments do nothing to help the 2A community... and worse... can hurt us.

If anything, it only supports the terrible notion that a selected group of people should be able to pick and choose who is allowed rights and who shouldnt even though the person hasnt demonstrated they cant be trusted.

 

[brickeyee]

I (the lawmaker, activist or strange left wing bleeding heart) cannot control myself, therefore I think you cannot either and thus a law must be made to prevent you from doing whatever evil I decide.

It is called projection.

They project their failings onto everyone else.

Since THEY could not control their anger and might use a gun inappropriately, they project this flaw onto everyone else.

 

[cowhrse1]

Nebraska leaves a grey area...the rule of thumb is if they have a kitchen and sell food, it's legal to carry.

018 PROHIBITED PLACES AND PREMISES
018.01 A permit holder may carry a concealed handgun anywhere except:
018.01M Establishment having a liquor license which derives over one-half of its income from the sale of alcoholic liquor;

Long as it's not strictly a drinking bar, you're probably ok.

Found this statement also:

018.08 While state law does not mandate, the Nebraska State Patrol strongly recommends that any establishment having a liquor license which derives over one-half of its income from the sale of alcoholic liquor post the premises with the standardized sign as patrons will have difficulty in determining which establishments with liquor licenses exceed the income limit.

 

[Art Eatman]

Again: Regardless of the legality of carrying into any location, those in charge of that location have the right to control certain things. If the administrator--owner, manager, whomever--doesn't want gun inside the door, he has the right to deny access.

The opening post merely illustrates the ignorance of some people, and the foolishness of their spoken opinions...