Bars at Gun Ranges

[Snake Eyes]

A couple of posts have gotten me thinking again about an issue I've kicked around before.

Marko:

I've been planning my own shop for years now: it will be called "The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms".

It will be a bar combined with a full range and a cigar store/walk-in humidor. Smoking will be permitted everywhere.

And Mike Irwins sig line:

In the immortal words of Dogbert, I dream of a world in which I can buy alcohol, tobacco, and firearms at the same drive-in window, and use them all before I get home from work.

So I wonder: Why not??

Now, before you jump all over me about alcohol and guns not mixing, understand that I'm not suggesting serving mixed drinks on the firing line.

But why shouldn't we be able to have a beer/cocktail/toddy after we're done shooting? Or something to eat that doesn't come from a vending machine?

In anticipation of the objections, I have prepared these pre-emptive strike arguments:

--No, I wouldn't let any one shoot after they'd had drinks. Even ONE drink.

--Yes, people would try to get around the rules, they already do. I myself have gone to the range after having a few beers. I wasn't drunk and I didn't do anything stupid--other than going to the range after a few beers. If the bar is on the same premises as the range, doesn't that make it easier to control??

--No, I wouldn't allow any guns in the bar. I'd provide lockers to check them, or you could take it out and lock it up in your car.

--All state rules and laws for firearms would apply (like no guns in bars, except in Nevada, etc.)

--Liability. While I'm sure that my insurance company and lawyer would disagree, I just can't see how there would be any more liability than owning a regular bar--and maybe less. I think most gun owners are pretty responsible and would be less likely to cause problems than at some of the dive-bars and pool halls I've been in. Maybe I would restrict the bar to CCW holders. Every CCW holder I've ever met is incredibly paranoid about doing anything that might cost them their CCW (of course, I probably wouldn't sell much booze--the CCW holders would all be 2 and out!).

So--Shoot me down. Tell me why it won't work. Aside from the state refusing to license a bar at a gun range, that is.

I'm really ready to try and do this. Anybody here own a range with some open space? Wanna be partners? Any lawyers want to help fight the state liquor board?

Seriously.


(mods--several legal and ethical questions raised here so I thought this would be the right forum. Feel free to move if I was wrong.)

 

[Sir Galahad]

I'll answer. It provides a negative image of gun owners, for one thing. For another, it sends mixed signals to teaching gun safety to kids. You tell them guns and booze don't mix, then you have this bar-gun range combo. Kids thrive on picking out contradictions in adults and use them to further their self-arguments to justify their rebellion against parents to themselves. It also says to the community that, hey, now you'll have ARMED drunk drivers to contend with. Gun owners for years have been fighting the image of the drunk redneck shooting road signs and this will only reinforce those stereotypes to the public. Not a good way to tell the community about being a responsible gun owner. You can say what you want about the community, but they're the voters. One of the reasons for "no carrying of firearms" ordinances in the late 1800s Dodge City and Tombstone was drunk, armed cowboys "treeing the town" by shooting randomly while leaving the saloons in town. The giving of CCWs in some states is under the understanding that these two elements---guns and alcohol---would not be permitted to mix in public and cause a recurrence of this situation. Indeed, it is fear of that very circumstance that is blocking CCW in some states. The liberals play on those fears and giving them some concrete to base them on only furthers their cause. It only takes a few high-profile incidents for the state to say, "Ok, that's enough! No more CCW. These people can't handle it responsibly." Face it, there are people who CANNOT handle alcohol. You mix them, alcohol, and guns, and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

[Preacherman]

Let me give you a scenario. Some dumb idiot does something stupid on the range and has a negligent discharge that injures or kills someone else. No alcohol involved - heck, the bar could be closed! - but can you just imagine the headlines?

"Gun slaying at range - was alcohol involved?"

"Was the shooter sober?"

"Brady Center criticizes range for mixing guns and liquor"

"Lawsuit filed against range for dangerous practices"

Do I have to go on? The mere presence of alcohol at a place where firearms are used is sufficient to draw every bottom-feeding lawyer in the country, all of 'em licking their lips and salivating at the money to be made. Heck, if a house ten miles away was found to have a bullet hole in it (later dated to the Civil War), these cretins would try to sue the range for the damage, on the grounds that some shooter must have been inebriated and fired his gun unsafely.

BAD idea!

 

[Orthonym]

Maybe drunken shooters aren't always evil?

I think I recall reading about people in Europe who shot pistols at very long ranges having to be helped to the firing point, because they were too drunk to stand, let alone walk. This seems to me to go along the same course with the rifle shooters wearing leather jackets over multiple sweatshirts so as to dull the effect of the pulse on a steady posture. Alcohol being a nerve poison, I'm not surprised that some people use it to stop the ordinary twitchiness to which we're all subject.

 

[JackShandy]

As Drew Carey once said about drive-thru liquor stores...

...ALMOST a good idea.

Gun owners already have a hard enough time as it is; toss alcohol into the mix and we're screwed.

 

[Kharn]

JackShandy:
My county in Maryland has drive-up liquor windows. The roadsigns advertising the price of a single ice-cold beer are usually in very large letters 200-300 yards up the road from the store ($0.99 is the current going price for Bud or Coors). I think I'm in the boonies...

Kharn

 

[rick newland]

While I was stationed in Germany I belonged to the Henschtal tell shooting club. Each club has shooting teams that travel to other clubs for competetion. Normally 12 weeks of police style centerfire then 12 weeks of .22 which is more target style. Everyclub I've been in Germany has a bar, and most of them also serve food. After a competetion we would sit down and have a few drinks while all the scores were added up and awards handed out. After we were finished we would travel back to our club and continue to down a few more. Since I was the only American in the club they had to keep beers cold for me, rest of them drank them heated. Normal sunday for me on the off season would walk to the club around 9am, pratice for a couple of hours, have a seat and drink four or five beers, then walk home and take a nap. I miss those days.

 

[JPM63US]

We do - sort of.

At our club, a private shooting range, we have a bar. It is open all day until 6:00 PM as part of the club house. Doesn't see much traffic aside from a lunch and after work rush.

We push the once your visit the bar, no shooting thing pretty heavy.

Our club is as much a social club as a shooting club Dances and BBQ's etc.

I've been to other private clubs with similar arrangements. There is a risk, but some are worth taking.

JPM

 

[XLMiguel]

In addition to all the reasons posted above, consider the scenario where a couple of newly acquainted shooters go to their cars after shooting and a 'few' cocktails and decide to show each other their stuff. For whatever reason, a ND/shooting occurs. You wanna 'splain that to the local TV medidiots, Loosie?

As the guy said, ALMOST a good idea(JMHO).

 

[cslinger]

I have thought about this and then thought again.

I like the idea of a range/resteraunt/coffee shop or whatever but not a bar.

The key, in my mind, is to make it a family fun day. Maybe have a nice reasonably priced resteraunt with an indoor range and maybe have some shooting related games for the kids that would teach safety, skills etc. I am not talking about FPS type stuff but laser target shooting, maybe the trap and skeet games that are popping up.

Anyway my thought was to make it more like a shotgun club only for handguns and indoor shooting. Something where the headlines would read. Fun Day For The Whole Family or something else to really throw a wrench in the general publics perceived image of gun owners.

Now I like my Liquor and I like my guns........I just don't want them mixed.

Chris

 

[MrAcheson]

Yeah its ALMOST a good idea.

If the bar is on the same premises as the range, it makes it easier to control people drinking at that bar and then shooting at that range. This is true. On the other hand the frequency of people trying to shoot after drinking will go up as well. So when someone succeeds in drinking, then shooting, then getting someone hurt (and someone will because you can't catch everyone) you will legitimately share in the blame.

Plus what happens to their guns which are stored outside the bar? Do you have the right to impound them until the guy sobers up? Otherwise you still have the guns+alcohol problem just in a different place. They guy aren't drunk and packing at the range, they're drunk and packing on the street.

 

[AZRickD]

A friend and I had an idea about starting a store front gun shop, smoke shop and liquor stored called "Best Alcohol Tobacco & Firearms." It turned into http://www.practicaltactical.net instead.

Remember about 30 years ago when the Olympic Pentathletes used to drink a beer before the pistol competition to steady their nerves after competing in some of the more physically intense events? The IOC banned the practice and labeled alcohol as a performance enhancing substance.

Rick

 

[bogie]

One of my favorite ranges is in Michigan, and has a clubhouse. After a long day of competition, goin' down and hoisting a few cold ones is a definite plus. And yeah, folks are VERY paranoid about safety.

My club has facilities to BBQ, etc., and it is common to see folks with a few cold ones after they've finished shooting, and put their toys away. That's the key. No toys = beverages.

 

[Jesse H]

I know my range has a BBQ place next to the shop, but I've never been inside so I don't know if they serve drinks. Thumper, Jeeper?

Here's food for thought, alot of people drive to and back home from bars. Not saying it's right to get sloshed and drive home, but it'd suck if they passed legislation that I can't drive back from a bar because others can't be responsible enough to know their limits.

Personally, I don't hang around guns when I'm drinking.

 

[Sleeping Dog]

A shooting range and bar combo sounds fine, like a good old German Schutzenfest (sp?).

But the cigar part. All you need is to have some hot ash fall in a shooters fffg powder supply, and the resulting explosion will cause everyone's beer to spill, a true disaster.

Let us know when this place opens, I'll be there.

Regards.

 

[spacemanspiff]

I think most gun owners are pretty responsible and would be less likely to cause problems than at some of the dive-bars and pool halls I've been in. Maybe I would restrict the bar to CCW holders.

insurance companies are afraid of anything related to firearms, and most companies have firing ranges on the list of prohibited classes. all it takes is a few losses (that easily add up to multi-millions of dollars) and they get skittish over classes of business.

you would definitely be able to find a company that would write the business, but it would have skyhigh premiums. the normal limits of liability would not be sufficient, ($1,000,000 per occurrence, $2,000,000 aggregate) and an excess or umbrella policy would be needed.

 

[jsalcedo]

It would have to be a members only bar with a one way entrance from the range (no re-entry).

With the range idiots I've seen...bar admittance would be selective and probationary.

A free breathalizer on the wall (seen these in vegas casinos) would determine whether you got your car keys and guns out of lockup or if you
got a cab ride or someone to pick you up.


Sounds harsh and I'm not big on rules but it would have to be restricitve by owner or face being resticted by the authorities.


I think a bar and restauraunt with a range is a cool idea.

 

[MarkDido]

Make the food McDonalds, and you will have everything that liberals (oops, I meant to say progressives) hate in one place!

Guns
Tobacco
Alcohol
Fast Food

Sounds like a target rich environment for lawyers!

 

[Monkeyleg]

Our club, and another that I'm aware of, has a bar in the clubhouse. No hard booze, just beer. I'm not aware of one incident involving someone who'd been drinking and then discharged his gun.

Our club had to get insurance from a company other than the NRA's, because NRA range insurance doesn't cover those places that serve alcohol.

In Wisconsin, we like our beer.

 

[SkunkApe]

My buddy's gun club (here in Michigan) has a bar that serves food and drinks.

He invited me there as a guest. We shot a few rounds of trap. We drank a few rounds of beers. Life was good.


Snake Eyes, I think you'd better wait until a few years after the Free Staters get settled before you try this.


P.S. Nobody tell Brownie0846 that I drank more than one beer.

 

[HBK]

Good idea, but one irresponsible person would screw it up for everybody.

 

[Glock_PhD]

I think this is a great idea. It would provide a place for like minded people to get together. Of course there are some reasons not to do it. But come on how sweet would it be to grab a nice macanudo do some some good practice and then afterwards sit around and enjoy a drink with your freinds. I think its an idea whos time has come.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I used to belong to a shooting club that had a bar. Most of the guys on my team drank beer after matches.

 

[ambidextrous1]

On ny first visit to thw Fort Bliss Rod & Bun Club, I shot for a couple of hours, put my gums in the trunk of the car, and stopped into the clubhouse to wash the West Texas dust out of my throat with a beer. I sat on a stool and ordered, and the barmaid said, "Sir, will you please remove your shooter's ID tag?"

I realized that everyone within earshot was staring intently at me. Recognizing that I had committed a breach, I muttered, "Oh, yeah, I forgot!"

One of the regulars, seeing a new face, smiled and said, "You'll get your beer when the tag comes off, pal; your shooting is over for the day."

This being Texas, they'll serve you anything that any bar serves.

As one line in a favorite book reads, "West Texas was a place where anone who didn't behave properly could get shot. Consequently, everyone behaved properly."

It's still that way.

Edited to correct crummy typing.

 

[MikeK]

You are allowed to drink at my range - After you've finished shooting AND your guns are put away and NOT in the parking lot that is next to the main road. Beer is served at some social events (non-shooting related). It has never been a problem.

Let me know when you open.