1.5F

[4v50 Gary]

Today I learned the Goex's Old Eynsford label has 1.5 F black powder. It's supposed to be for black powder cartridge rifles.

https://goexpowder.com/olde-eynsford-1-5-f/

Can anyone please explain non-Eynsford cartridge powder. Where does in fall in the F scale?

 

[Jim Watson]

1 1/2 Fg is the US nomenclature for Swiss #4.

Hard to get a straight answer, one post says Cartridge was equivalent to 2 1/2 Fg, another says 2 Fg with fines screened out.

Maine Powder House says Estes has Goex BP in production but all going to government contracts, none for retail yet.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Grain size for Swiss:

Type	Granulation	Use
1Fg 1.5Fg 2Fg 3Fg 4Fg 0B Böller Artillery	1.2-1.6 mm 0.85-1.2 mm 0.65-1.2 mm 0.5- 0.8 mm 0.25- 0.5 mm 0.19- 0.23 mm 1.0- 2.2 mm 1.3- 1.6 mm	Cannons, shotguns, and muskets .45 caliber rifles and greater .45 caliber rifles and greater .45 caliber rifles and smaller, pistols Flintlock priming powder only Flintlock priming powder only Cannons and mortars Cannons and mortars

From:

https://schuetzenpowder.com/swiss-black-powder/

 

[StrawHat]

Blackpowder is very much a trial and error game. For example, the idea that 4f is only a priming powder and that is all it can be used for. I prime my pan with whatever I use for the main charge. If that is 2f or 3f, so what? My locks produce enough spark to ignite the pan and send the ball on its way. And, I use 4f in some of my cartridges! Still trying to find the right amount for the 22-12-45 but in the 32 WCF and even the 45 S&W it works very well.

In the 50-70, I use 2f but if I could find some 1f or 1.5f, I would have to try it to see if it gives better performance.

Kevin

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

The guy that came up with that use chart helps to further the mythology about powder size and use. 4 f works well in cap and ball revolvers and in cartridges. 3f gives good results in calibers up to .65 for me, 3 f also works well in 12 gauge shotguns.. I never use 4 f in flinter pans, why bother when whatever is in the horn works just as good or better? I would think that the courser granulation would be better in a mortar or cannon.

 

[Jim Watson]

First you bite your cartridge and prime the pan. Then you dump the rest of the powder down the barrel, then the ball, then the cartridge paper as a wad.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

First you bite your cartridge and prime the pan. Then you dump the rest of the powder down the barrel, then the ball, then the cartridge paper as a wad.

Well, I don't bite, just tear. However, I have primed both my Jeager with 1.5fg, and Bessie with 1fg without noticing much if any change in ignition time.
Having said that, I usually carry a BP revolver when hunting with Rosie or Bessie, and as I load my pistols (except the Plains Pistol) with 4fg, and carry a flask of that for the pistol, I usually prime with that. Packing the Plains Pistol of course I'd just feed it from the Horn, and would prime from the horn. I do miss taking my little priming horn, as it was a gift and has much sentimental value, but it's sure nice having one less thing dangling off me. !!! Perhaps it holds enough powder for my 1862, maybe turn it into a regular powder horn. Hmmmmm...!!

 

[Jim Watson]

Opinions on what they did in the XVIII vary. I saw one reenactor biting the ball out of the cartridge, dumping powder, then spitting the ball down the barrel and ramming the paper as a wad (or not, q.v. Sharpe's Eagle "tap loading" by just trumping the butt on the ground to settle powder and ball to save having to draw and return the ramrod. I found a video, have to see if it is practicable.)

Another left the ball in the cartridge paper and rammed it as one unit.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Methinks there was a variety of paper cartridges over time, different types were tried and experimented with. I think the Prussians, Germans, Brits, etc. all tried different things at different times. When rifles came into regular use sometimes one took the bullet out of the paper, some cartridges you left them in, etc. So more variations aside from opinion!! Don't think they all did it the same way. And how reenactors do it...that...is another story.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Old military loading was to bite the cartridge and clench the ball in the teeth. Prime the pan, empty the powder down the barrel. Spit the ball down. Crumple the paper into a wad, jam it into the barrel and ram it down atop to keep the ball in place.

There was tapping but this wasn't frequently done by the common soldier. Lewis Wetzel and other frontiersmen resorted to that technique when they shot, ran and loaded on the run. There must be a Mark Baker video showing this technique. Looked and couldn't find a video of him demonstrating it.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Old military loading was to bite the cartridge and clench the ball in the teeth. Prime the pan, empty the powder down the barrel. Spit the ball down. Crumple the paper into a wad, jam it into the barrel and ram it down atop to keep the ball in place.

That might be myth. ?

nd other frontiersmen resorted to that technique when they shot, ran and loaded on the run.

Yes some really odd and creative techniques were used among rangers and frontiersmen. Often the touch-hole was enlarged considerably, so that the main charge also flowed into the pan. So you just closed the pan, poured the powder down the barrel, and dropped in an undersized ball. (probably retrieved from a pouch, rather than having a mouth full of balls) As it was intended to be immediately fired, nothing was put over the ball to keep it in place.

"Paper Cartridges" on youtube has a good video showing how the normal/standard military loading technique, bite the end off the paper cartridge, pour in the powder, and ram the rest, ball and paper down, and returning the ram-rod to/into the musket was just as fast as the mythical bite-pour-spit-tap style of loading. With any method, excluding the enlarged touch-hole method, four shots per minute is about the best one is going to get.

 

[Lefty38-55]

I myself would only use 1.5Fgin longer barrel lengths, like I use 1Fg in my 60” barreled 75-caliber club butt. If I used 2Fg I would get a crud ring about a foot down from the muzzle.

Turkey hunters should be aware you can often get much TIGHTER shot patterns with the coarser powder, as it is a softer start to the combustion.

 

[Roverguy]

Love OE 1.5fg in 45-70 500 grs paper patched loads in my Pedersoli RB replica! Tight extreme velocity spreads, great accuracy. 1.5 Fg is best with heavies in 45 cal in my experience. Have found 2Ffg delivers better with a tradition 400 grs bullet, especially with slightly harder alloys.

 

[woodnbow]

I use it in similar fashion in 45 and 50 caliber muzzle loading rifles but only with heavy for caliber bullets and longer barrels. The Rigby and Gibbs rifles and the like.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Well, 1.5 is turning out to be my Jeager's favorite, and it has a relatively short barrel. (30-32" I forget) (Colerain) But it is of large caliber. I've been shooting 1fg in my Bess for years now, (swiss) with no substantial increase in fouling, compared to Swiss 2fg which is what I used in it the first year or so I had it. My main attraction to 1.5 and 1fg in the Bess and the Jeager is that it packs up against the touchhole nice and tight. I can just look and see the main charge. Don't have to pick at nothing. I think, believe, and just my opinion is that gives the fastest ignition time, although the Jeager is so fast it's hard to perceive, most of the time, that there is any lag at all. I mean, I touch the set-trigger and it goes off, just like a .30-06. I shot the Jeager a bit yesterday, and I was just slightly aware of the cock striking the frizzen once or twice, (or more correctly "hammer") but that is unusual. Normally, touch the trigger and there is an instant (seemingly) bang.

Bessie is "pretty fast", but I can feel or am aware of the frizzen flying forward before the bang. But again, she seems to fire fastest with 1fg packed up tight against the touch hole. And of course, being individuals, Bess likes a generous helping of prime, the Jeager just a small amount.

 

[4v50 Gary]

That might be myth. ?

As late as the Civil War part a prospective soldier was examined by the regimental surgeon who checked that he had two front teeth, on upper, one lower with which he could bite open his cartridge. The bullet was held by the teeth until it was spat down the barrel.

The other "bite" the bullet was part of surgery. If a stick wasn't available, a soldier was given a bullet to bite on. The Civil War Museum of Medicine in Frederick, MD has examples on display (when I visited over a decade ago).

 

[Ugly Sauce]

As late as the Civil War part a prospective soldier was examined by the regimental surgeon who checked that he had two front teeth, on upper, one lower with which he could bite open his cartridge. The bullet was held by the teeth until it was spat down the barrel.

Are you sure? I believe the paper end of the cartridge was bitten off, the powder poured in, and then either the bullet, paper and all was rammed down the barrel, depending on the type of cartridge, or the bullet was squeezed out of the paper, and then put in the muzzle and rammed down.

If you watch that video by "Paper Cartridges", with the bullet or ball still in the paper it was almost impossible to spit it into the muzzle. It would not go in straight, nor go down. Plus, biting the bullet off the cartridge resulted in something like 24-30% of the powder being spilt. But, I ain't no expert on this. !!!

 

[4v50 Gary]

Checked with von Steuben and Hardee on loading and it says noting about bite'n the boolit so you're right Ugly Source.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

That's okay. We've all had to bite the boolit in life a few times!

 

[Dave T]

Not relevant to you muzzle loaders but my 74 Shiloh Sharps 50 2-1/2" seems to prefer 1.5 Swiss and OE over FFg. Clean up is easier and it shoots better, at least as well as my aging eyesight can see.

Dave

 

[Jim Watson]

I tried some 3F Goex to get more velocity from my .38-55-335 and it was faster than 1 1/2 Swiss but not nearly as accurate.