1:7-8 twist bolt action 5.56mm youth rifle exist?

[No4Mk1*]

I am searching for a very low recoil bolt action for my son to begin to deer hunt with. My prefered load is the 70 grain Hornady GMX or the 70 grain Barnes TSX. Both Hornady and Barnes give data to load to 223 or 5.56 pressures, which I have done with the GMX for use in the AR-15 at 5.56 pressure. 18-20" barrel length would be fine. The problem is I cannot find a bolt action rifle with a fast enough twist AND advertised to handle 5.56 pressure. I lose very little velocity going from 55 grain to 70 grain loads, so I want to stick with 70gr for SC deer. Here is what I've found...

Mossberg MVP flex youth - 5.56 but 1:9 twist.
CZ 527 youth - 5.56 but 1:9 twist.
Ruger American 1:8 twist but only 223
Tikka T3 1:8 twist but only 223
Savage 223 and 1:9.5 I think?

Does anyone know of a 5.56 bolt rifle with 1:8 or faster twist?
Thanks

 

[eldon519]

Other than being a bolt action, a pencil-barrel AR is about perfect. They are lightweight and you can collapse the stock for a youth LOP.

 

[No4Mk1*]

I do have a pencil AR, and I may use it (as a single shot), but it is still more heavy than a bolt action and I would prefer to teach the loading & unloading process with a bolt action 1st as he can see the workings of the action better.

 

[<*(((><]

I have a mossberg MVP and have a suggestion. It is a 5.56 chamber and it utilizes a barrel nut system similar to the savages. So with some extra expense you could go with a mossberg and buy a 1:7 or 1:8 twist barrel and swap it out.

 

[Gtscotty]

I thought the main difference between .223 and 5.56 was slightly differing neck dimensions. Why don't you just get the Tikka and load it up to where you want it? The same rifle is chambered in 7mm mag and .300 win mag, I'm pretty sure the bolt, and barrel will handle warm .223 loads.

 

[JO JO]

Check out the Ruger American Ranch its a bolt action chambered in 5.56 and I
think its 1/8 twist the Ranch model is a different model then the standard American
model and only made in 5,56 and 300blk worth a look

 

[MtnCreek]

For deer, I'd consider something in 243 or similar. It can be downloaded to low recoil. It's also very versatile. JMHO.

 

[No4Mk1*]

Thanks Jo Jo. You found one. Now I'f only it was lighter with a longer barrel... The CZ 527 youth is only 5.61 lbs with a 18.5" bbl. length of pull is pushing me toward the Mossberg MVP though dispite twist. I have considered other calibers, but for a new 80 pound shooter I just can't beat 5.56mm. In a few years I will just download a 308 to maybe 125gr @ 2500fps, but not yet.

 

[double bogey]

I downloaded some .243 with 100 gr. bullets in a mod 700 with a youth stock. My grandson shot it fine when he was 8, he didn't notice when I upped it to factory loadings and velocity when he turned 9. he turns 10 in a couple of weeks, weighs 115 lbs. now. I would use the .243 in a youth rifle, a little more margin for error, and it will work for him until he outgrows it. Then you can get him a larger caliber. I am working on arming a 10 yr. old, a 6 yr. old, and a 1 yr. old, all boys, and a 3yr. old girl.

 

[rbernie]

FYI - yes, Tikka advertises the 223 1:8" T3 on their web site, but be forewarned that Beretta USA doesn't actually bring that offering in to the US very often...

 

[Sunray]

Funny how before there was an Internet, the .223 Rem and 5.56NATO were the same thing.
What cartridge the kid uses really has nothing to do with his age or his size. The stock certainly matters, but that applies to the big kids too. Take him shooting with a rifle that fits him.

 

[Corn-Picker]

How certain are you that a 1:9 twist is insufficient for a 70 grain bullet? I'm just curious, I haven't shot anything that heavy from my 223. My 223 is a 1:12, and it handles the 55 grain Barnes tsx and 62 grain fusions just fine.

 

[No4Mk1*]

The bullet manufacturers state that 1:9 will not stabailze. Keep in mind these are solid copper, as long as a standard 75-80grain bullet. I agree that rifle size is very important. But light weight and light recoil should help the experience as well. Re 223 vs 5.56 being a real issue, rifle manufacturers and reloading manuals seem to suggest this is a real issue, though not highly dangerous or we would see more warnings I guess.

 

[Gtscotty]

I guess what I'm not clear on is what you think a 5.56 chambered rifle will do that a .223 chamber will not. Hodgdon load data shows .223 70 gr loads with velocities in excess of 3,000 fps.

 

[No4Mk1*]

The Hodgdon data is not using the bullet I use. It is a 70 grain SP, but these solid copper bullets can generate more pressure at any given powder weight. The max load for H4895 using a 70gr TSX is 23.5 grains for 223 and 24.4 grains for 5.56. So if I load a 70gr TSX "223" using Hodgdon's max 25 grains and fire it in a 223 chamber I am 1.5 grains over max per Barnes data. If I fire it in a 5.56 chamber then I am 0.6 grains over max. This is why I only use rifle data specific to the bullet I am using.

In the end, finding a rifle with a 5.56 chamber just lets me put about 1 more grain of powder in the case. I would not care, but since 5.56 is on the weak end of what is reasonable for deer (see the 243 suggestions -which I must consider) I want that extra grain if I shoot a .224 bullet.

 

[justin22885]

if youre hunting with it id use a bigger bullet before packing that extra grain of powder into it

 

[Gtscotty]

I, of course, wasn't suggesting that you use Hodgdon jacketed bullet data with a tsx, just pointing out the velocities that can be achieved with 70gr bullets in a .223 chamber. Usually similar velocities can be achieved with smaller charges when using tsx bullets because they generate more pressure than jacketed, so you should be able to get plenty of velocity out of a .223 using that bullet to kill deer. In short, your insistence on having a 5.56 chamber for deer hunting is limiting your choices, but not giving you any usable advantage.

 

[Manny]

I, of course, wasn't suggesting that you use Hodgdon jacketed bullet data with a tsx, just pointing out the velocities that can be achieved with 70gr bullets in a .223 chamber. Usually similar velocities can be achieved with smaller charges when using tsx bullets because they generate more pressure than jacketed, so you should be able to get plenty of velocity out of a .223 using that bullet to kill deer. In short, your insistence on having a 5.56 chamber for deer hunting is limiting your choices, but not giving you any usable advantage.

There is an advantage in a 5.56 chamber in that both .223 & 5.56 can be fired in a 5.56 or Wylde chamber, and a .223 chamber is strictly for .223 ammo. The advantage may not be significant in terms of performance but would be beneficial in terms of logistics.

I'm giving consideration to getting a Ruger Ranch rifle in 5.56 as a woods bumming rifle that can use the ammo I have for my AR, most of which is 5.56 with heavy bullets. For me having a 5.56 chamber and a 1/7 or 1/8 twist is a big deal.

 

[GooseGestapo]

My Mossberg MVP shoots Berger 70 gr VLD, Sierra 69gr GK, and 68 gr Hornady under 3/4moa over 25.0gr RL15, CCI srm primers.

 

[sirgilligan]

From my understanding there are 69 grain projectiles that are not as long as the 70 or higher and they stabilize better in 1:9 twist. Is 69 grain not acceptable? The CZ is a 5.56 chamber. I talked to CZ myself. They implied that all European .223 REM's are 5.56 because in Europe those are the same cartridges, but that was implied, I would contact any manufacturer to verify.

With that said, I have shot a few different weights through my CZ with 1:9 twist, and at 100 yards everything was still good. I still need to shoot the heavier stuff at 200 and 300 to see if they start to wobble.

Here is the proof:

 

[No4Mk1*]

For hunting With such a marginal caliber for deer I need all the weight retention I can get. I consider the 62 grain TSX to be heavier than a 69 or even a 75 grain cup and core (even if bonded) bullet. The key is I am comparing their expected weight after impact, not flying thru the air. So far I am leaning toward either the MVP flex and may give up on my 70gr load vs the slightly heavier (with a shorter barrel) Ruger Ranch.

 

[eldon519]

I've followed the thread, and I know you were not wild about it, but I'd still have another look at an AR. A Colt 6720 weighs 6.2lbs, 5.56 chamber, 1-7 twist, adjustable length of pull, and is gonna have gentler recoil than any bolt action of the same weight. Not to mention it's a gun he can really grow into and use for a lifetime. Also worth noting you could put in a .22 conversion kit and get loads of cheap practice without the noise and recoil.

 

[dubbleA]

If you are bent on getting a 5.56 chambered rifle over a regular .223 simply because you can load 1 more grain of powder consider finding a junker Savage and install a 1:7 or 8 twisted 223AI barrel on it and be done. A cheaper alternative would be to have a 223 chamber punched out to an AI.

It will easily out perform the 5.56 with any weight bullet. Simply fire a 223 in the AI chamber and you have a fire formed case to hand load again.

 

[MtnCreek]

70gr Speer works well for deer and shoots fine in 1:9 barrels (even short ones).

Although you're not looking at 243's, I will throw it out there that a R700 243 Youth can be had for cheap and would make a good base for a rebarrel / nice stock in a few years. Not saying 243, but 243.

 

[Gtscotty]

Unless the OP's reason to stay with the 5.56 is so he can use cheap mil-surp as practice ammo, there's really not much point in hunting deer with a bolt action 5.56. You can still get light rifles in .243, and it is totally possible to download .243 to where it would be comfortable for anyone to shoot. I can't remember who it is, but there is someone on this board that says he uses 85gr hp Gamekings at somewhere below 3,000 fps to stack up deer. You'd be spending less on bullets that probably put deer down better, to boot.