1000 yard long range performers.

[Threeband]

Is the forend of the Enfield that fragile? Do you think they will crack, or fall loose, or something?

No, but it will shift with changes in humidity. That thin barrel will be whipping around like a noodle with every shot. The barrel bands will dampen vibration in constantly changing ways.

Get a Threeband. Take it to the range on six consecutive weekends. See if it isn't shooting a little differently each time. Now try to adjust your sights to compensate. You can't!

the issue now is to be able to aim at a certain point ABOVE the target...

That's what adjustable sights are for.

Listen, if you really want to show up those know-it-all 1000 yard riflemen with their fancy-schmancy modern guns, why mess around with half measures? Why not use a matchlock arquebus?

 

[Mike OTDP]

Yup. The 1000-yard rifles of the Long-Range Muzzle-Loading Team have VERY heavy barrels and half-stocks for precisely that reason.

 

[4v50 Gary]

The chunk guns with barrels that look like a drive shaft do well at 1,000 yards, but there is a price-weight & portability. Custom gun makers will make one for you and if you ever get out to Friendship (IN) for the (blackpowder) National Matches, you'll see them on the firing line.

The British Whitworth was capable of hitting at 1,000 and considering their weight and portability, were the preferred (and highly desirable) guns of the Confederate sharpshooter.

 

[Threeband]

But notice that none of those 1000 yard rifles uses minie balls. The heavy powder charges would blow the skirts of a minie, and besides, you need all the sectional density you can get.

 

[scrat]

wow kep this up. this is some good reading here.

 

[Rachen]

I am starting of thinking about getting the Whitworth. Right now, I am aware of only two manufacturers building them: Gibbs/Parker-Hale and Euroarms. According to Dixie, the Euroarms is built with the exact tooling located in Birmingham, England, just minus the Parker-Hale trademarks.

I was looking at a Whitworth round just before, and it has a very long construction, sleek, almost like the modern .308 or .30-.06 match bullet instead of the Minie, which looks more like a MINIVAN minus the wheels.

No, but it will shift with changes in humidity. That thin barrel will be whipping around like a noodle with every shot. The barrel bands will dampen vibration in constantly changing ways.

Wow. Before this, I was only minutely aware of the issue with expansion and contraction with the barrel, I heard many match shooters talk about how leaving a rifle in the sun too long will affect accuracy.

Listen, if you really want to show up those know-it-all 1000 yard riflemen with their fancy-schmancy modern guns, why mess around with half measures? Why not use a matchlock arquebus?

Hehehe, if someone makes one with WHITWORTH rifling, it'll sure be interesting to try it out.

 

[Threeband]

Wow. Before this, I was only minutely aware of the issue with expansion and contraction with the barrel, I heard many match shooters talk about how leaving a rifle in the sun too long will affect accuracy.

EVERYTHING affects accuracy. You could go nuts!

Expansion and contraction is a big issue with all wooden stocks. That's what glass bedding and is intended to address. That's why you see so many synthetic stocks these days, on hunting as well as target rifles. Wood is beautiful, but it has Problems.



The Whitworth uses a special polygonal bullet, or at least the originals did. You need a special mold for it. Solid base, of course: i.e., not a minie.

Getting into the new-fangled breechloaders, those Trapdoor Springfields were known for excellent long range accuracy. I have a long article somewhere on the subject of tests conducted on Long Island with the Trapdoor at over 1000 yards, back in the 1880s, I think. Maybe I can dig it up and post the reference.

You should read up on the original Creedmore matches between the British and the American teams, back in the 1870s. The Americans used Remington rolling blocks; I think the British used Sharps, but I might be wrong. Try this:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9B00E5DE1E3FE63BBC4951DFB2668383669FDE

If you find the matchlock a bit of a challenge, remember, the first rifles were wheelocks, german of course.

 

[Jim Watson]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember reading that 1000 yard targets fired at with .45 caliber rifles of whichever loading preference, will have an oblong hole when actually hit due to the steep downward angle of the trajectory way out there.

These are not mortars or even howitzers. By calculation and actual test, a black powder bullet from a .45 at 1000 yards is coming in at an angle of only about 4.5 degrees above the horizontal. A little more or less depending on whch .45 and what bullet, but it runs 4 to 5 degrees. This would apply pretty much the same to a .451 muzzle loader as to a .45-70 or .45-110. That does not ovalize the holes very much. The range test was done with two targets about 6 feet apart over the pits, and measuring the actual drop from 1000 to 1002 yards.

 

[Threeband]

Just to clarify what I said about glass bedding, (although I don't have any glass-bedded rifles, so what do I know?):

Barrels are typically free-floated, so they touch nothing, or set up with a single pressure point, often carefully adjusted with shims. Actions are often glass bedded, as well as other critical spots.

Anyway, these problems are what RustyfromItaly was talking about in his post above:

... a good match of barrel in stock channel with epoxy bedding under the tang the breech and the band made it a good shooter!
... much grease under the barrel and let it always in place also for cleaning

In other words, he never removes the barrel from the stock, now that he has it "settled in."

I once thought about installing three hidden pressure/support points beneath the three bands, with hidden adjustment screws in the ramrod channel. One reason I never did is because it's a completely absurd idea.

 

[Steve499]

Thanks for the information, Jim. I may have read that on the net and you know what THAT means.

My two band .451 Volunteer wasn't performing anything like I expected it to. There are so @#$*^% many variables and I only have one mold so I could never be sure the bullet itself, of whatever alloy, wasn't the problem. I managed to ring my barrel and had to have it relined so the Alexander Henry rifling is gone.
The 'new' barrel shot no better than the original until I worked on the bedding and even now, it is very sensitive to hand placement. Resting on a sandbag at any point forward of the rear band changes the point of impact. It shoots best when hand held on the checkered portion behind the rear band, and the hand rested on the sandbag. The barrel is free floated from the rear band forward with a shim exerting upward pressure at the nose cap. It shoots pretty good like that if you just don't touch the stock forward of the rear band. If I only intended to shoot targets with it, I'd get rid of the full length stock and give it a Gibbs look, but I hunt with it and need to keep the ram rod with the rifle.

But....it's very rewarding at times. I was working on getting my tang sight calibrated and set it by guess and by golly when I moved from 300 to 400 yards. A 16 inch solid black bull gives the same sight picture in the tang and globe at 400 as a 4 inch circle does at 100, so it really isn't any more difficult, aiming wise, than shooting at shorter range, just need the wind to cooperate. Anyway my very first sighter at 400 was an X. That's just way cool to do with a muzzle loader!

 

[Rachen]

Getting into the new-fangled breechloaders, those Trapdoor Springfields were known for excellent long range accuracy. I have a long article somewhere on the subject of tests conducted on Long Island with the Trapdoor at over 1000 yards, back in the 1880s, I think. Maybe I can dig it up and post the reference.

There is an article about that in Dixie Gun Work's Black Powder Annual. I have every single edition published since 1987. I am going to find it tonight and post the edition and issue tomorrow.

I am also aware that the Whitworth uses special bullets. Dixie carries a specialty mould and mould prep for these things. Whitworth rifling is already built into the slug before it is loaded.

 

[StrawHat]

Here's a link to a report of the Sandy Hook Trials.

Trapdoors at 2 miles! And the 45-80 cartridge.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targets/ballistics/sandyhook.htm

 

[hildo]

Great link.
Had already read it before, do not forget to go back to the 'index' in that site.
There you will find more interesting historical stories.

Hildo

 

[sundance44s]

Thinking about a Whitworth ?? Check this one out , I`ve been drooling over it for a month now , wish someone would buy it so I can stop wishing ...http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(gq...catId=12&subId=83&styleId=290&partNum=AAF-374

 

[sojournerhome]

That Whiteworthooks so cool.
Was worth the look.

 

[Steve499]

I am also aware that the Whitworth uses special bullets. Dixie carries a specialty mould and mould prep for these things. Whitworth rifling is already built into the slug before it is loaded.

Those Whitworth molds and the six sided bullets they throw sure are sexy but regular bullets shoot equally as well from a Whitworth, according to all reports. The 'bumping up' which occurs when the powder ignites will apparently expand a round bullet to fill a six sided bore as easily as it does to expand the bullet into the grooves of conventional rifling. Given the price I've seen for the Whitworth molds, I'd be inclined to give regular bullets from a cheaper mold a trial before I spring for one of those.

There may be a Whitworth in my future. I had the tore-betweens when I got the Volunteer but I can feel the old acquisition gene kicking up again. Someone stop me before I spend again!

 

[hildo]

The 'bumping up' which occurs when the powder ignites will apparently expand a round bullet to fill a six sided bore as easily as it does to expand the bullet into the grooves of conventional rifling.

Then I have a question.
When a bullet 'bumps up' that much, why is it so important to slug a barrel and then choose a +.001" or so larger bullet size then the actual bore, measured groove to groove?
Or does a round bullet not bump up that much in a regular round barrel, but only in a whitworth rifled barrel?

By the way... check out this original whitworth rifle
Far beyond my budget, but nevertheless....
http://www.antiek.net/bolkantiques/showimagebig.cfm?cat=1209&subcat=2185&aid=265735&the_start=14

Hildo

 

[scrat]

Here's a link to a report of the Sandy Hook Trials.

Trapdoors at 2 miles! And the 45-80 cartridge.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targe.../sandyhook.htm

This is some good reading. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Steve499]

Hildo, I'm not sure I qualify to answer since I have nothing beyond suspicions about how it all works. My Volunteer rifle's bore mikes .451. I don't know how deep the grooves are by actual measurement. I size the bullets for it to .450. They seat with only the weight of the ramrod. When it's fired, the bullet only has to expand .001 to fill the lands but must expand more to fill the grooves.

In a Whitworth bore which mikes .451 or so, also, the same amount of expansion, .001, would be required to fill the flats, leaving only the corners. I'll bet if one took a cross section of both rifling styles and measured the straight line distance of the circumference each one posesses if all the lands and grooves were straightened out, you'd be looking at nearly the same linear length, meaning nearly the same amount of expansion would be required to fill both bores, just different shaped expansion.

Here's a link to a picture from an old thread. I shot this bullet through 13 plastic jugs filled with water and it still buried a few inches into the ground beyond the jugs. Notice how much the fired bullet has shortened which is apparent by comparing the grease grooves side by side. The nose deformation was probably due to impact but may have been partially due to slumping of the nose as the bullet bumps up. The lands in my rifle are narrow, meaning quite a bit of expansion is required to fill those wide grooves.

http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=44113&d=1156885388

 

[hildo]

Steve, I can see that expansion theory of you working. Interesting, also the photo's. I didn't now a bullet would bump-up that much. You must have used a heavy powder charge.
Did they minie's for for lighter charges, or maybe for lighter bullet weight to achieve the required expansion?

A larger than the bore bullet is obviously only used in breech loading weapons.
However they are used in them, and according to many topics on THR on C&B revolvers it is quite important for the bullet to be a tad bigger than the grooves for best accuracy. So sometimes people enlarge their chambers in the cylinder to accomplish that.

Maybe a bullet does not bump-up as much in a breechloading rifle then, or only not when it is not heavy enough? Or would it bump-up in a breechloader as well and and oversize bullet is not needed at all, unless you are using hardened lead like in modern rifles?
And probably bullits used in revolvers are just too light to bump-up?

Sorry for going indepth with all the questions, but... I just have to know!

Thanks,
Hildo

 

[rusty from italy]

Hildo, i can try to give you same answer, i own a volunteer.
In a breech loading rifle actually you have a hard alloy and the bullet don't upset and expand in the bore, in a old breech loading cartridge, born for black powder propellant the bullet is softer than actual alloy with antimony, in the old 45-70 the good alloy was from 20:1 in the 45-70-500 of the rifle up till a 40:1 in the 45-55-405 of cabine load, the 405 bullet was hollow base, not like a miniè with thin skirt, but a hollw base help to seal the bore, the bullet speed with black powder isn't so high to make the bullet jump the rifle, a 40:1 alloy of lead-tin is enougt with the moderate 55 grains of charge!
Going to the muzzleloader, speaking of small caliber fast twist like volunteer, withworth, gibbs or rigby (volunteer is 1:20, the other are usually 1:18) you must find the right chemistry, a well balanced charge with right hardness of the bullt and weight of it!
A heavy bullet help the expansion due the high mass that oppone to the kick of the blast, in a 1:18 a 540 grain bullet work quite well, (.45) but if you use a high admount of charge, and for long range you need it, the bullet gone straight out to the rifle if it is too soft like pure lead, so for take rifling is use to add a small admount of tin in the lead of the bullet, the right quantity to get a right expansion and a good take of rifling!
Going down with the charge, for example a 100 mt firing line is more usually here in europe (in Italy tere is three or four site with 300 mt line and no one over this) all the balance change, and the research for the good recipe start again!
Pardon my bad english i hope you have understand me!
ciao
Rusty

 

[Steve499]

Maybe a bullet does not bump-up as much in a breechloading rifle then, or only not when it is not heavy enough? Or would it bump-up in a breechloader as well and and oversize bullet is not needed at all, unless you are using hardened lead like in modern rifles?
And probably bullits used in revolvers are just too light to bump-up?

As Rusty said, there's a balance that has to be achieved for everything to work properly and, again, I only have suspicions about what's really happening.

The bumping up process apparently happens in the very first microseconds of the charge's ignition. The more mass it has by added length and the softer the bullet alloy is, the more it resists beginning to move, demonstrated by shortening in length and expanding in width, or bumping up. I know 70 grains of 1 1/2 fg powder is sufficient to make a .45 caliber, 550 grain bullet do that but I've never tried smaller and smaller charges with that long bullet or lighter bullets with heavier charges to see where the process begins.

As far as breech loaders go, I know the Brits had fits with this principle when they converted their Enfields to breech loaders using the Snider system. The Enfield had an excellent reputation for accuracy when loaded with just under bore size hollow based minie bullets. When converting the .577 Enfields to the Snider system they used the same bullets loaded into cartridge cases and found, eventually, that things don't work that way and earned the Snider a reputation for inaccuracy along the way. Apparently, a bullet expands into the area surrounding it at the instant of ignition. Further expansion stops after the bullet starts moving. If the bullet is contained in a cartridge case the case must limit it's expansion and by the time it clears the case it has already stopped, so for it to fill the grooves, it must necessarily begin the journey larger than land to land diameter.

I guess in revolvers, the only bumping up that could happen would take place in the cylinder. Any expansion in the barrel would be caused by lead being displaced by the lands moving into the areas of the grooves. Revolvers with cylinder chambers smaller than barrel diameter stack the deck against accuracy. There are some who theorize this is an allowance for fouling but I think it's just poor design.

 

[Jim Watson]

I don't have much experience with muzzleleoaders and zilch with the late cylindro-conical bulleted guns like Whitworth, but can say that there were a lot of black powder cartridge guns that depended on bumping up a soft bullet. There are a lot to be seen that will not chamber a cartridge loaded with a groove diameter bullet. They have to bump up to work at all.

The Trapdoor Springfield is infamous for oversize barrels that look sloppy with a standard .458" bullet. The original 405 grain bullet was hollow based to Minie-up. The later 500 grain bullet was flat based or maybe just slightly dished. Apparently its inertia was enough to cause it to bump up to fit the barrel.

 

[Rachen]

Hollow based bullets like Minies are meant to bump up when the gases from the burning powder pushes into the hollow base. When a Minie ball is leaving the barrel, it will hardly look like a Minie ball at all. It will look like a VERY FAT Hershey Kiss, due to the expansion of the base. Someone here mentioned something about the base of the Minie being dislodged when firing? The solution to that is having a projectile with NO grease grooves. On Dixie, they sell a mould that casts the ORIGINAL Enfield Minie ball, 530 grain hollow base round nose, no grease grooves.

 

[oneshooter]

The origional English pickett ( Pritcher?)had no grooves. The bullet was wrapped in greased paper that was loaded with the bullet. It was a paper patched bullet! I plan to order some from DGW, but does anybody know what paper would be used?

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas