Traded Into a Zouave Today

[Dave Markowitz]

Today I took another trip up to Dixon's and wound up trading my Pedersoli Brown Bess carbine for a Euroarms Remington 1863 Contract Rifle, AKA Zouave. Although about 12,000 of these were made by Remington during the Civil War, it's unlikely that any of them saw service. They are called Zouaves nowadays because somewhere along the line someone thought they were made for Union Zouave units. Regardless of whether they were ever used in service, they are a relatively handy example of a rifle musket.

It goes perfectly with the Zouave flask I just picked up.



This one bears a date code of AP, which translates to 1986. The stock shows some dings but the metal is in great shape and the bore is excellent. It's a .58 caliber and was intended to shoot Minie balls on top of 60 grains of powder. Back in the 1970s my father had a Zoli Zouave and got best accuracy with patched round balls. From what I can find, the Euroarms Zouaves have a 1:66 twist so I suspect that it, too will shoot better with a PRB. In any case, I have a couple of suitable ball sizes and some Minies to try.

The front sight appears to be a taller replacement intended for competition use. It'll give me plenty of metal in case I need to file it down to raise the POI.

Something I thought was interesting is that it lists a maximum powder charge on the barrel, but it's in drams. 3-1/2 to be exact. That translates to 95.7 grains, probably more than I'll ever shoot.



The nipple unscrewed easily but the flash hole looks a bit enlarged. I put in an order with Track of the Wolf for 2 spares and few other odds and ends.

The ramrod is made from brass and has male threads on the end. Along with the gun I got a Treso adapter that allows me to use standard 10-32 accessories. Naturally, I found that I already had one when I got home; I'd bought it to use with the Bess I traded in today. Oh well, 2 is 1 and 1 is none.

The stock is one of the blandest pieces of wood I've seen on a gun. I may strip it, stain it darker, and finish it with BLO. I think it has some kind of polyurethane on it now.

Assuming it shoots well it's a definite candidate to use during PA's early muzzleloader antlerless deer season, which allows caplocks. (We have a flintlock-only season after Christmas.) A .562 or .570 patched round ball should be very effective on Pennsylvania whitetail.

Tomorrow I'll be shooting a woods walk and using my plains rifle, so I won't get to shoot this rifle until next week at the earliest.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Nice!

 

[hawg]

The 1861 Springfield had a twist rate of 1:72. The .577 Enfield had a twist rate of 1:78. The original Zouave had a 1:66 twist rate. A minie ball flies more like a round ball than a conical. A maximum powder charge with a minie is about 70 grains. Much more and it will blow the skirt and accuracy will go out the window.

 

[AlexanderA]

Take a look in the patch box (which isn't really a "patch box" because patched balls weren't being used in the 1860's). The recess should be cut for a neat little appendage, which is an accessory "sniper" front sight. It secures to the barrel, in front of the regular front sight, with a knurled set screw. The originals also had a hole in the recess for a spare nipple.

 

[hawg]

Take a look in the patch box (which isn't really a "patch box" because patched balls weren't being used in the 1860's).

Then why do I have some in my collection of dug bullets?

 

[Speedo66]

I have an original Zouave bayonet, it’s a long one, more like a short sword.

 

[hawg]

I have an original Zouave bayonet, it’s a long one, more like a short sword.

They're actually called yataghan bayonets. I still have one for a British musketoon.

 

[PapaG]

I broke the 50 yard offhand musket record at the Nationals in the early 70s with round balls out of my Zouave. That said, it had a NSSA approved Numrich seven groove barrel. My record, breaking one years old, lasted only til the spring shoot. The guy who did it duplicated my technique.
.570 ball, 65 grains of DuPont fffg, 20 gauge .070 card wad, and a #11 RWS cap. Patch lubed with "moose milk" and cleaned between shots with one wet, one dry.
I had made bases for Redfield aperture sights and using them won a fair number of local bench rest and cross sticks matches. Dumb me sold it long ago.
I now have a Hy Hunter with the "Remington" on the lock "Xed" out. From about 1968. It even has the tapered bore.
Z guns are fun even though they use a lot of lead.

 

[AlexanderA]

Then why do I have some in my collection of dug bullets?

Because, if these were dug at Civil War sites, they were from "buck and ball" loads used in smoothbore muskets, such as the M1842. The rifles were all using Minies, obviously without patches. The last issue rifle to use patched balls was the M1841 "Mississippi," and by the time of the Civil War, most of those had been upgraded by being rebored to .58 and/or being fitted for bayonets. Even the ones still in .54 were being loaded with paper cartridges containing Minies. Loading with patched round balls was a thing of the past.

 

[AlexanderA]

They're actually called yataghan bayonets. I still have one for a British musketoon.

The blades had to be long so that (in theory) they would match the reach of a 3-band musket with triangular bayonet. The yataghan bayonets were all for short guns, such as rifles and musketoons.

The blades were recurved so as to be clear of the line of the bore, and to provide hand clearance when loading the gun. The Middle Eastern yataghan swords, on which they were modeled, were recurved in the same way (even though they weren't bayonets), so this was a case of adopting a design feature that happened to be convenient for another purpose.

Anyway, in practical use, these were a failure. Ungainly and awkward to carry. Many of the troops to whom they were issued simply discarded them as dead weight. These are in the same category of useless weapons as the M1832 Foot Artillery Sword, and the M1849 Ames Rifleman's Knife. All of them are monstrosities. Their main purpose, today, is to bedevil collectors.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Take a look in the patch box (which isn't really a "patch box" because patched balls weren't being used in the 1860's). The recess should be cut for a neat little appendage, which is an accessory "sniper" front sight. It secures to the barrel, in front of the regular front sight, with a knurled set screw. The originals also had a hole in the recess for a spare nipple.

View attachment 1139516

My rifle has the hole in the patchbox for the spare nipple.

 

[44 Dave]

My rifle has the hole in the patchbox for the spare nipple.
Mine has a musket in that hole and the #11 nipple on the barrel.
H have a partially torn tendon and the Zuave hurts to shoot, I might be talked out of it

 

[hawg]

My rifle has the hole in the patchbox for the spare nipple.
Mine has a musket in that hole and the #11 nipple on the barrel.
H have a partially torn tendon and the Zuave hurts to shoot, I might be talked out of it

If I had any money I'd buy it.

 

[Slamfire]

Because, if these were dug at Civil War sites, they were from "buck and ball" loads used in smoothbore muskets, such as the M1842. The rifles were all using Minies, obviously without patches. The last issue rifle to use patched balls was the M1841 "Mississippi," and by the time of the Civil War, most of those had been upgraded by being rebored to .58 and/or being fitted for bayonets. Even the ones still in .54 were being loaded with paper cartridges containing Minies. Loading with patched round balls was a thing of the past.

There are a number of smooth bore M1842's in the Museum on Chickamauga National Battlefield. I do not doubt that Northern and Southern units used the things at the time. According to one book by the Southern General in charge of Lee's Ordnance, the Army of Northern Virginia finally replaced all of its flintlocks with captured Union caplocks after the battle of Chancellorsville. That does not mean all the cap locks were rifled.

I know the 4th Alabama was issued caplock, round ball, rifled Mississippi rifles which they used at 1st Bull Run. https://civilwarintheeast.com/confederate-regiments/alabama/4th-alabama-infantry/ I don’t know what they had by the time of Little Round Top, I am sure it was the best rifled minie ball muskets the Union could provide. Except for the M1842 Muskets used by the Irish Brigade against the Confederates during Pickett’s charge. But somewhere between Bull Run and Appomatix, the 4th Alabama was shooting round balls. Only the Union had the industrial capacity to rebarrel Mississippi rifles to 58 caliber muskets, and I have a replica of one.

Neither the North nor South anticipated the massive buildup after Fort Sumter. Both sides used whatever was squirreled away, and both sides purchased as many obsolete weapons as they could from European nations. The South was particularly short of everything, and it did not have the industrial capacity to arm its Army's. Nor were its bond sales to Europe enough to buy sufficient munitions. Good arms came through the blockage, but given time, the North was able to create an effective blockage. I read after the battle of Kernstown, Confederate Calvary General Turner Ashby wrote that one of his men rode bare back and carried a wooden club as a weapon! Shades of Braveheart. The Confederates in the West, and the Army of Tennessee, were particularly poorly armed. The editor of the post war Confederate Veteran magazine, wrote in his book, that even though he joined early, the first he was handed a musket was when his unit went into Fort Donaldson. His unit was supplied with flintlocks, which they had to surrender to the Union when Grant captured Fort Donaldson. And at Shiloh, men in newly raised Confederate units were using personnel shotguns.

I have read a number of commentaries about the 1842 Musket and its lethality. Some have stated that given the average shooting distances for units, the buck and ball of the 1842 Musket would have killed more people. I can say, in the thickets of Chickamauga, the woods of Big Round Top, and Culps Hill, a smooth bore musket would have done just fine. The undergrowth today is such, you can walk up on someone and not see them till they blow your brains out.

 

[AlexanderA]

There are a number of smooth bore M1841's in the Museum on Chickamauga National Battlefield. I do not doubt that Northern and Southern units used the things at the time. According to one book by the Southern General in charge of Lee's Ordnance, the Army of Northern Virginia finally replaced all of its flintlocks with captured Union caplocks after the battle of Chancellorsville. That does not mean all the cap locks were rifled.

To be clear, there was the M1841 rifle, and there was the M1842 musket. The M1842 was the first general-issue cap lock, and the last smoothbore. There was a program in the 1850's to rifle them, but most were still smoothbore by the onset of the Civil War. The smoothbores were found to be quite effective loaded with "buck and ball."

As for the M1841 rifles, it wouldn't make sense to bore them out smooth. The reboring was from .54 to .58, but they were still rifled.

I know the 4th Alabama was issued caplock, round ball, rifled Mississippi rifles which they used at 1st Bull Run.

Regardless, nobody had time to carefully load patched bullets. Everybody was using paper cartridges. That was the whole point of my post. By 1863, the Zouave rifle's "patch box" would not have been used to carry patches. It was a retro design, but repurposed to carry other appendages.

 

[Slamfire]

Too many model numbers to keep them straight!, changed the Model number where appropriate. Yes, the M1841 was rifled, the M1842 was the smooth bore.

 

[PapaG]

My rifle has the hole in the patchbox for the spare nipple.
Mine has a musket in that hole and the #11 nipple on the barrel.
H have a partially torn tendon and the Zuave hurts to shoot, I might be talked out of it

What is the manufacturer of yours? I'd like to find a nice one marketed by Navy Arms. most were Zoli, if I recall it correctly.

 

[eastbank]

i have and shoot a buffalo hunter .58 cal, looks like a shortened and sporterized version of the 1863 Z with decent sights. my load of 65gr fff and a 575213 mini ball is a very accurate load, i have hit gulf balls at 50 yards from a rest.

 

[l.cutler]

Mine is a Zoli, marked Sears Roebuck & Co. on the trigger guard.

 

[44 Dave]

Don't have any full picts. but here are maker's mark and date code.
The RRR is Ranson Remington.

 

[AlexanderA]

Mine is a Zoli, marked Sears Roebuck & Co. on the trigger guard.

Zoli was one of the best, if not the best, of the Italian Zouave makers.

Mine is an Armi Sport / Chiappa (marked with "AC" within an oval, on the barrel). No importer's mark. The only mark on the lockplate is the eagle.

 

[hawg]

AF = 1980. I don't recognize the three overlapping R's. Ranson guns were marked Ranson Italia SPA.

 

[44 Dave]

AF = 1980. I don't recognize the three overlapping R's. Ranson guns were marked Ranson Italia SPA.

This is not a "for sale add"
I have only $200 in it, due to shoulder issues I would rather trade for a pistol or $$. Still in the "thinking of stage".

 

[dave951]

When I'm doing instruction at a Scout summer camp, we use a set "Zouaves" as part of the set of rifles. Here's a sample of what it can do with a very basic load that isn't particularly tuned. Group is 10 shots offhand at 50yd.

 

[hawg]

This is not a "for sale add"
I have only $200 in it, due to shoulder issues I would rather trade for a pistol or $$. Still in the "thinking of stage".

I didn't think it was. I'd like to have it but I don't have anything to trade.