105 grain 38 special loads

[shanep0017]

I just ordered 100 of the 105 grain FP (swc) bullets to test out in 38 special and was wondering if anyone had some loads to recommend. I have the Lyman data for this bullet but I'm wondering if I can tweak the data at all or if I should try a different powder altogether. I'm looking for a low recoil load for the 105 bullet.
I was planning on using Win 231 since I have it on hand but they call for 4.2 grains to start. I thought that was a little strange since they call for 3.5 for 90 grain and 121-125 grain bullets. I get why a lighter bullet usually calls for more powder than a heavier bullet but I found it strange that the 90 grain bullet calls for less powder than the 105.
I'm sure I could drop down to 3.5 or 3.8 safely but I'm wondering if accuracy would fall off. Anytime I've gone lighter than start loads with 158 grain bullets I get keyholing.
You guys think the 4.2 load would still be low recoil or should I try a different powder like titegroup or 700x?
I'm open to all suggestions, different powder, different charge of 231, etc. I plan on trying the 4.2 load but I want to load these for my wife and daughter so I want it to be as pleasant as possible. I've heard of people using 3-3.5 grains 231 with the 105 bullet but I'm wondering how accurate they were? They don't have to print 1 inch groups and they can shoot low I just don't want them to keyhole.
Any advice is appreciated!!!

 

[Blue68f100]

You can do a reduced charge workup to find how low you can go without sticking a bullet in the barrel, or accuracy goes to pot. I've done this many times looking for reduced target loads. Just start dropping the charge 0.1gr at a time, shot a cylinder, repeat. Always confirm the bullet hit the target. Once you find the min, I normally bump it up 0.2gr to be on the safe side. Also remember that some powders are reverse temp sensitive, gain pressure as temp drops. You also need to do powder forward/back test to see if its position sensitive. Generally fast burn powders are best for this application.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

I just ordered 100 of the 105 grain FP (swc) bullets to test out in 38 special and was wondering if anyone had some loads to recommend. I have the Lyman data for this bullet but I'm wondering if I can tweak the data at all or if I should try a different powder altogether. I'm looking for a low recoil load for the 105 bullet.
I was planning on using Win 231 since I have it on hand but they call for 4.2 grains to start. I thought that was a little strange since they call for 3.5 for 90 grain and 121-125 grain bullets. I get why a lighter bullet usually calls for more powder than a heavier bullet but I found it strange that the 90 grain bullet calls for less powder than the 105.
I'm sure I could drop down to 3.5 or 3.8 safely but I'm wondering if accuracy would fall off. Anytime I've gone lighter than start loads with 158 grain bullets I get keyholing.
You guys think the 4.2 load would still be low recoil or should I try a different powder like titegroup or 700x?
I'm open to all suggestions, different powder, different charge of 231, etc. I plan on trying the 4.2 load but I want to load these for my wife and daughter so I want it to be as pleasant as possible. I've heard of people using 3-3.5 grains 231 with the 105 bullet but I'm wondering how accurate they were? They don't have to print 1 inch groups and they can shoot low I just don't want them to keyhole.
Any advice is appreciated!!!

In your case, it's because they are different bullet profiles. One is a hollow point and one is a semi-wide cutter. You have to compare loads with the same bullet. Type. A 90 grade jacketed hollow point is longer than the 105 grain semi-watt cutter.

 

[shanep0017]

You can do a reduced charge workup to find how low you can go without sticking a bullet in the barrel, or accuracy goes to pot. I've done this many times looking for reduced target loads. Just start dropping the charge 0.1gr at a time, shot a cylinder, repeat. Always confirm the bullet hit the target. Once you find the min, I normally bump it up 0.2gr to be on the safe side. Also remember that some powders are reverse temp sensitive, gain pressure as temp drops. You also need to do powder forward/back test to see if its position sensitive. Generally fast burn powders are best for this application.

Everytime I've played with reducing charges accuracy goes out the window, but I've only ever done it with 158 grain SWCs. The exception being with HS6 but that's a whole different story. I used Lymans starting load for a 158 with HS6 and got keyholing, went just below Hodgdon data at 5 grains and got a good target load. Anytime I've reduced 231 with the 158s say 2.8 or 3 grains they keyhole, so I'm a little hesitant on wasting components and dropping the charge down.
All the other powders Lyman calls for with the 105 are in the 3 to 3.5 grain range, 231 is the only one above 4 grains.
I plan on trying the 4.2 grain load anyway, but if it comes down to it I'll just pick up a different powder for that bullet, most of the powders Lyman calls for I can use in other applications so it's not a big deal. I've just heard of people using as little as 3 grains 231 with the 105 bullet and wanted to see what kind of accuracy they got. That or if anyone uses a different powder for that bullet for low recoil loads.

 

[film495]

in my experience Win231 starts to leave some unburned powder if the load is too light, below published starting loads. I'd just try the 4.2 and see how it feels. 4.2 seems like a reasonable charge for that weight in that catrdidge, but if there is any doubt I'd check other sources, maybe hit the Hodgdon relaoding site to see what data they have.

 

[dannyd]

For the best results with the 105 if it a lead bullet, trim your cases to the same length, good roll crimp and the Lyman cast bull data. It's an easy bullet to cast from a Lee six cavity mould.

 

[shanep0017]

In your case, it's because they are different bullet profiles. One is a hollow point and one is a semi-wide cutter. You have to compare loads with the same bullet. Type. A 90 grade jacketed hollow point is longer than the 105 grain semi-watt cutter.

I'm not talking about data for a 90 grain jhp I'm talking about data for a 90 grain cast bullet. One is round nose and one is a flat point sure but it still doesn't make sense when usually a lighter bullet calls for more powder.
Profile and shape has a little bit to do with it but look at Hornady data for lead bullets, all of their 158 grain lead bullets have different profiles but they use the same data. In the Lyman cast bullet book alot of bullets with different profiles but similar weight have very similar charges.
If you take 2 jacketed bullets or 2 cast bullets 9 times out of 10 the lighter bullet will require more powder.

 

[P Flados]

My wife is very recoil sensitive and her little Ruger LCRx is very light. As such, recoil even with normal mild 120 gr target ammo was too much for her.

Lighter bullets are better for low recoil and experience has shown that most any bullet can be "worked down" to well below typical published starting loads in a 38. Faster powders work better for this kind use. A lot of Cowboy action load data is out there with very close to 600 fps from a full sized revolver. Shooters World published handgun data around or a little bit below 500 fps.

After scrounging around my stuff I came up with a 102 gr Lee RN mold (108 gr as cast). I made up a bunch and "worked down" with both Titegroup and Promo. For Titegroup, 2.5 gr was "low enough" to not bother her. With Promo, 2.8 gr seemed ok. Chrono out of a 3" gun was just above 600 fps (more when "tipped back", less when "tipped forward" just prior to firing) for these loads.

I found that I enjoy shooting this gun with either these or the 120 gr target load. A full power 158 crosses into "no fun" territory for the LCRx.

I have made and fired a whole lot of this 108 gr low recoil ammo from a number of different guns including a Henry rifle.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

Well it's like you said nine times out of 10 not always.

 

[shanep0017]

in my experience Win231 starts to leave some unburned powder if the load is too light, below published starting loads. I'd just try the 4.2 and see how it feels. 4.2 seems like a reasonable charge for that weight in that catrdidge, but if there is any doubt I'd check other sources, maybe hit the Hodgdon relaoding site to see what data they have.

That's what I've been trying to do but haven't been able to find and other data for the 105 lead bullet. Hodgdon does have data for a 90 grain cast bullet and 125 grain but no 105.
You're probably right and I fully intend on trying the 4.2 load. I just know how soft shooting 3.2 grains of 231 is under a 158 grain bullet. I'm wondering if a different powder at 3 to 3.5 grains would be even softer under the 105 grain.
4.2 probably is a soft load under the 105, I've run 4.4 grains under a 158 and it wasn't bad at all. Im just running on the theory that less powder produces less recoil.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

Now the data that you are talking about, is it for a specific bullet or for just a general cast semi-watch cutter in general?

 

[shanep0017]

Now the data that you are talking about, is it for a specific bullet or for just a general cast semi-watch cutter in general?

It's for the Lee 105 SWC mould however I don't cast myself so I got the 105 bullet from Missouri Bullets. I believe it's the same mould comparing pics from the MB website and the Lyman book they look to be the same.

 

[fxvr5]

An article in the October 2023 Shooting Times used a Summers Enterprises 105 grain truncated cone lead bullet loaded with 3.6 grains of 231. They don't show a velocity for that load but accuracy at 25 yards was 18 shots in 1.54 inches from a S&W model 67 4" gun.

 

[shanep0017]

My wife is very recoil sensitive and her little Ruger LCRx is very light. As such, recoil even with normal mild 120 gr target ammo was too much for her.

Lighter bullets are better for low recoil and experience has shown that most any bullet can be "worked down" to well below typical published starting loads in a 38. Faster powders work better for this kind use. A lot of Cowboy action load data is out there with very close to 600 fps from a full sized revolver. Shooters World published handgun data around or a little bit below 500 fps.

After scrounging around my stuff I came up with a 102 gr Lee RN mold (108 gr as cast). I made up a bunch and "worked down" with both Titegroup and Promo. For Titegroup, 2.5 gr was "low enough" to not bother her. With Promo, 2.8 gr seemed ok. Chrono out of a 3" gun was just above 600 fps (more when "tipped back", less when "tipped forward" just prior to firing) for these loads.

I found that I enjoy shooting this gun with either these or the 120 gr target load. A full power 158 crosses into "no fun" territory for the LCRx.

I have made and fired a whole lot of this 108 gr low recoil ammo from a number of different guns including a Henry rifle.

Maybe I'll try some of their 125 grain cowboy bullets next. The 105s are cowboy bullets too, maybe I'll see if Missouri Bullets has any load data for the 105s.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

If it's for a mold, maybe the minimum charge is so low in order to be safe with the variety of tolerances that the bullet can have depending on who made it. Some people will make soft lead. Some people will hardcast, everyone will use different types of lubes, or different types of coatings. Remember it's just the starting load, you can work your way up a little faster if you think it's too low and once you reach a certain point, work your way up much slower. You can probably find more precise load data for the exact bullet if you Google search specific terms, a neat trick to do with Google search is to add the word "forum" to the search and it will in forums more deeply. I get good results doing that when looking for load data that is hard to find.

 

[shanep0017]

If it's for a mold, maybe the minimum charge is so low in order to be safe with the variety of tolerances that the bullet can have depending on who made it. Some people will make soft lead. Some people will hardcast, everyone will use different types of lubes, or different types of coatings. Remember it's just the starting load, you can work your way up a little faster if you think it's too low and once you reach a certain point, work your way up much slower. You can probably find more precise load data for the exact bullet if you Google search specific terms, a neat trick to do with Google search is to add the word "forum" to the search and it will in forums more deeply. I get good results doing that when looking for load data that is hard to find.

The data I have is for the Lee mold using a 10-1 alloy other than that I'm not too sure about it. I have done the forum search trick and actually found a thread on here where a guy claimed to have used 3 grains of 231 under a 105 grain lead bullet. Unfortunately the guy isn't around here anymore cause I would have liked to ask him what kind of accuracy he got.
It's not that the charges are too low necessarily, its just that their is no other data I can find for a 105 grain lead bullet. I was just hoping maybe someone here had a good load they could recommend for a 105 grain bullet. The 4.2 load may be perfect but I was thinking maybe someone here started with less and got good results.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

The data I have is for the Lee mold using a 10-1 alloy other than that I'm not too sure about it. I have done the forum search trick and actually found a thread on here where a guy claimed to have used 3 grains of 231 under a 105 grain lead bullet. Unfortunately the guy isn't around here anymore cause I would have liked to ask him what kind of accuracy he got.
It's not that the charges are too low necessarily, its just that their is no other data I can find for a 105 grain lead bullet. I was just hoping maybe someone here had a good load they could recommend for a 105 grain bullet. The 4.2 load may be perfect but I was thinking maybe someone here started with less and got good results.

It seems to me that you're going to have to be the pioneer for that load data and then come back and show us your results so that others can replicate it. If you are having that heart of a time finding a load for that exact round, you're going to have a harder time finding someone who is also shooting it out of the same gun you have or at least the same length barrel.
I know it can be a hassle working up a load yourself. I don't have any ranges around me where I can make loads on the fly as I shoot. I have to develop several loads and drive to a remote location in the desert and take my chronograph and other equipment. I had to do the same thing you're doing and research and try to find the closest load data I can possibly get so that it doesn't become a very tedious effort. I had 3d decent success myself. Other rounds, like the 110 grain Hornady XTP, is very popular to use with titegroup. It was easy to confirm the manufacturers max recommended load data and just went with it and everything worked out just perfect. Not a whole lot of people load for 45 super, so that's where I have to struggle for low data.
I was actually researching various load datas for various projectiles using my powder so that I can have ballparks when I try to load. Projectiles that no one has ever loaded before. I plan to get this solid copper hollow point that's called a raptor. I don't know why there's not a whole lot of information on that round. It seems like it would be very popular.

 

[shanep0017]

It seems to me that you're going to have to be the pioneer for that load data and then come back and show us your results so that others can replicate it. If you are having that heart of a time finding a load for that exact round, you're going to have a harder time finding someone who is also shooting it out of the same gun you have or at least the same length barrel.
I know it can be a hassle working up a load yourself. I don't have any ranges around me where I can make loads on the fly as I shoot. I have to develop several loads and drive to a remote location in the desert and take my chronograph and other equipment. I had to do the same thing you're doing and research and try to find the closest load data I can possibly get so that it doesn't become a very tedious effort. I had 3d decent success myself. Other rounds, like the 110 grain Hornady XTP, is very popular to use with titegroup. It was easy to confirm the manufacturers max recommended load data and just went with it and everything worked out just perfect. Not a whole lot of people load for 45 super, so that's where I have to struggle for low data.
I was actually researching various load datas for various projectiles using my powder so that I can have ballparks when I try to load. Projectiles that no one has ever loaded before. I plan to get this solid copper hollow point that's called a raptor. I don't know why there's not a whole lot of information on that round. It seems like it would be very popular.

Is the Raptor made by CEB? If so I believe Hodgdon has data for it at least in 38/357. I have some remington primers I wanna burn off anyway, only have about 50 of em left and I worked up all my loads using Winchester primers. I substituted the Remington primers in my 38 loads without issue so I'm not too worried switching back to Winchester after working up low pressure loads. Perhaps I'll start at 3.5 and work up to 4.2. I just can't help but think I can go below the 4.2 start and see good results.
I've had some odd issues with Lyman data anyway, they call for 4.5 grains HS6 under a 158 grain swc and it keyholed like no tomorrow. Hodgdon calls for 5.3 to start with a 158, when I went up to 5 grains even it worked beautifully for a target load. They also call for 3.6 grains 231 to start with a 158, yet I have no issues using 3.2 under a 158 using Hodgdon and Hornady data. I guess I'm just going to have to experiment a little and see what works. If 4.2 is too much or if going lower doesn't work I'll just have to switch powders. I found 700x for $26 recently and I wouldn't mind picking it up just for kicks at that price.

 

[P Flados]

If your velocity is between 600 and 700 fps, any bullet 125 gr or less should be pretty low on recoil. However, the 105s should be better for this application than the 125s as long as they shoot good enough.

You really do not need "load data" for this type of application. In general, just pick a light starting charge with a fast powder and work down a little at a time. When you get "about right" check that you have margin between this load and the point where a stuck bullet is a risk. Drop down another 10% or so for a cylinder of rounds and confirm that that they shoot ok. Then go back to the "about right" charge and load away.

When you do the above, a 5/16" solid rod (aluminum, brass or possibly even hardwood) is a good thing to take with you just in case a bullet does does stick. I have even used a steel rod with tape wrapped around the outside to protect the bore. A 105 to 125 cast bullet is not that hard to remove if you have the right tools.

For your 105s in a 38, I have seen lots of CAS folks loading down around 3.2 gr Titegroup. Some tried lower, but they generally wanted a little more power for banging on the steel targets.

For me, I settled on Titegroup as it meters much better than my other choice. When I drop below 3.2 gr of Promo, my powder measure starts shearing flakes much more than normal and is a PITA.

 

[garandsrus]

I have shot this bullet a lot. 3.7gr Red Dot works very well. Low recoil and very good accuracy. You can reduce the 231 load, just make sure every one is exiting the barrel. You can go too slow and stick a bullet in a revolver. I think my load is 3.2gr W231. You do need a slightly heavier charge than you do with a heavier bullet.

 

[dannyd]

It's for the Lee 105 SWC mould however I don't cast myself so I got the 105 bullet from Missouri Bullets. I believe it's the same mould comparing pics from the MB website and the Lyman book they look to be the same.

The only problem with the bullet there's not a lot in the case, so that's why the crimp is so important. Missouri Bullets produces great bullets, I have shot several thousand.

 

[shanep0017]

If your velocity is between 600 and 700 fps, any bullet 125 gr or less should be pretty low on recoil. However, the 105s should be better for this application than the 125s as long as they shoot good enough.

You really do not need "load data" for this type of application. In general, just pick a light starting charge with a fast powder and work down a little at a time. When you get "about right" check that you have margin between this load and the point where a stuck bullet is a risk. Drop down another 10% or so for a cylinder of rounds and confirm that that they shoot ok. Then go back to the "about right" charge and load away.

When you do the above, a 5/16" solid rod (aluminum, brass or possibly even hardwood) is a good thing to take with you just in case a bullet does does stick. I have even used a steel rod with tape wrapped around the outside to protect the bore. A 105 to 125 cast bullet is not that hard to remove if you have the right tools.

For your 105s in a 38, I have seen lots of CAS folks loading down around 3.2 gr Titegroup. Some tried lower, but they generally wanted a little more power for banging on the steel targets.

For me, I settled on Titegroup as it meters much better than my other choice. When I drop below 3.2 gr of Promo, my powder measure starts shearing flakes much more than normal and is a PITA.

A squib rod is definitely a must have although I haven't needed one so far. I thought I would when I tried 2.5 grains 231 under a 158, I was shocked I didn't need it the rod

 

[shanep0017]

I have shot this bullet a lot. 3.7gr Red Dot works very well. Low recoil and very good accuracy. You can reduce the 231 load, just make sure every one is exiting the barrel. You can go too slow and stick a bullet in a revolver. I think my load is 3.2gr W231. You do need a slightly heavier charge than you do with a heavier bullet.

I use 3.2 grains 231 under a 158 bullet and it's actually very mild. I'm not looking to get into squib territory I just felt like 4.2 grains under the 105 would be about the same as 3.2 under a 158. I was thinking 3.5 to 3.8 would be a good place to start. I don't want to go so low as to lose accuracy just low enough where the 105s are softer than the 158s. If it doesn't work out I can always switch powders.

 

[horsey300]

I use 3.2 grains 231 under a 158 bullet and it's actually very mild. I'm not looking to get into squib territory I just felt like 4.2 grains under the 105 would be about the same as 3.2 under a 158. I was thinking 3.5 to 3.8 would be a good place to start. I don't want to go so low as to lose accuracy just low enough where the 105s are softer than the 158s. If it doesn't work out I can always switch powders.

Soooooo without measuring pressure accurately, I'll say that your 158 gr load creates more pressure, so you COULD run 3.2 under the 105 BUT, I would IN MY OWN GUNS, start at listed start load and work down in .1 increments.....that being said, I have never used anything so light in the .38 147s (from mattsbullets.com) or hornady 158s (frontier lead) or 158 Speer hps & gdhps, are all I've ever run and my (at the time) 6 year old loved all of my bullseye loads, she is now 12 and runs the bullseye 158s like a pro, even out of my pietta stallion and ruger sp101. I DO understand working with what you got but generally I leave all bullets lighter than 110gr to the folks that might use em in the Itty bitty .38 guns (.38 s&w, .38 colt etc) by the way, did you measure diameter of your 105s? Truly consider some bullseye or sport pistol (bullseye has a long affair with .38 sp for a reason though just sayin). The max load for a 148 is 3.1 gr and gets around 700 fps outta my 4.2" bbl. We load around 3.2-3.4 under the frontier lead 158s and they're a hoot, the now 12 yr old picks em over the .22lr revolver anymore. Eta: low recoil is NOT just bullet weight, a load that runs 3 gr will have less recoil than a load with 4 gr (if same bullet is used both times)

 

[shanep0017]

Soooooo without measuring pressure accurately, I'll say that your 158 gr load creates more pressure, so you COULD run 3.2 under the 105 BUT, I would IN MY OWN GUNS, start at listed start load and work down in .1 increments.....that being said, I have never used anything so light in the .38 147s (from mattsbullets.com) or hornady 158s (frontier lead) or 158 Speer hps & gdhps, are all I've ever run and my (at the time) 6 year old loved all of my bullseye loads, she is now 12 and runs the bullseye 158s like a pro, even out of my pietta stallion and ruger sp101. I DO understand working with what you got but generally I leave all bullets lighter than 110gr to the folks that might use em in the Itty bitty .38 guns (.38 s&w, .38 colt etc) by the way, did you measure diameter of your 105s? Truly consider some bullseye or sport pistol (bullseye has a long affair with .38 sp for a reason though just sayin). The max load for a 148 is 3.1 gr and gets around 700 fps outta my 4.2" bbl. We load around 3.2-3.4 under the frontier lead 158s and they're a hoot, the now 12 yr old picks em over the .22lr revolver anymore. Eta: low recoil is NOT just bullet weight, a load that runs 3 gr will have less recoil than a load with 4 gr (if same bullet is used both times)

My 3.2 load is under the Hornady Frontier bullets as well. The only reason I wanted to try the 105s was to see if I could work up something even easier. I'll probably go higher than 3.2 with the 105 bullets, I'll probably start around 3.5 grains.
For some reason Bullseye hasn't been around too much in my area, I found an 8lb jug but I don't have those kind of funds rights now. I might have did a 4lb or a couple 1lbs.