105 grain 38 special loads

[Mostly Lead]

I just ordered 100 of the 105 grain FP (swc) bullets to test out in 38 special and was wondering if anyone had some loads to recommend. I have the Lyman data for this bullet but I'm wondering if I can tweak the data at all or if I should try a different powder altogether. I'm looking for a low recoil load for the 105 bullet.
I was planning on using Win 231 since I have it on hand but they call for 4.2 grains to start. I thought that was a little strange since they call for 3.5 for 90 grain and 121-125 grain bullets. I get why a lighter bullet usually calls for more powder than a heavier bullet but I found it strange that the 90 grain bullet calls for less powder than the 105.
I'm sure I could drop down to 3.5 or 3.8 safely but I'm wondering if accuracy would fall off. Anytime I've gone lighter than start loads with 158 grain bullets I get keyholing.
You guys think the 4.2 load would still be low recoil or should I try a different powder like titegroup or 700x?
I'm open to all suggestions, different powder, different charge of 231, etc. I plan on trying the 4.2 load but I want to load these for my wife and daughter so I want it to be as pleasant as possible. I've heard of people using 3-3.5 grains 231 with the 105 bullet but I'm wondering how accurate they were? They don't have to print 1 inch groups and they can shoot low I just don't want them to keyhole.
Any advice is appreciated!!!

As you get into light loads it gets harder to keep the powder in a consistent position. I've used Titegroup for light loads and been happy with it, supposed to be more position tolerant... Burns to hot for me with medium to heavy loads though - as in the barrel actually gets pretty hot...

 

[shanep0017]

As you get into light loads it gets harder to keep the powder in a consistent position. I've used Titegroup for light loads and been happy with it, supposed to be more position tolerant... Burns to hot for me with medium to heavy loads though - as in the barrel actually gets pretty hot...

That's always fun to deal with lol I hate when that happens. A few weeks ago I was working up different loads and took about 180 38 and 357 with me. I had to switch and shoot a different gun for a while.

 

[horsey300]

My 3.2 load is under the Hornady Frontier bullets as well. The only reason I wanted to try the 105s was to see if I could work up something even easier. I'll probably go higher than 3.2 with the 105 bullets, I'll probably start around 3.5 grains.
For some reason Bullseye hasn't been around too much in my area, I found an 8lb jug but I don't have those kind of funds rights now. I might have did a 4lb or a couple 1lbs.

They have load data for a 110 xtp, might help with a jumping off place eta: IF IT WERE ME, I'd start with 4.6 as a max, - 10%= 4.2ish, could call it 4.1 and see how that treats you. 4.0 would "probably" be safe to start. Further edit: redid the math to try to account for the difference of lead vs xtp= max of 3.5. Someone with quickloads could probably get you closer.

 

[mdi]

If it were me, I would stop overthinking the issue, and start load workups with the manual's suggested starting load. Personal experience beats form opinions/answers. Lyman normally supplies safe trustworthy load data and they are a lot smarter than I am..

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

The real lesson here is: Find load data first, Then order bullets.

 

[shanep0017]

The real lesson here is: Find load data first, Then order bullets.

I had the load data already, I'm trying to see if anyone has gone below the 4.2 grain start load with 231 and if so what kind of results did they get. I plan on trying the 4.2 load but I'm also going to reduce the charge and try 3.5 and 3.8 and see what kind of results I get. If 3.5 works for a lighter 90 grain cast bullet and also works for a heavier 121 grain cast bullet I should be able to start in the 3.5 grain area and work up.
I mostly wanted to find out if accuracy suffered with less than 4.2 grains.

 

[shanep0017]

If it were me, I would stop overthinking the issue, and start load workups with the manual's suggested starting load. Personal experience beats form opinions/answers. Lyman normally supplies safe trustworthy load data and they are a lot smarter than I am..

I love the Lyman cast book don't get me wrong but I've had some weird things happen with their data. Try 4.5 grains HS6 under a 158 grain bullet and you'll see what I mean. Using 158 grain bullets as an example their data for HS6 starts too low, but their data for Win 231 starts higher than both Hodgdon and Hornady. A 158 grain SWC starts at 3.6 grains 231 in the Lyman book while Hornady starts at 3.2 grains. I've had no issues with the 3.2 grain load even though it's below Lyman starting load. Hodgdon recommends 5.3 grains HS6 under a 158 grain bullet, I got keyholing with the 4.5 grain start load from Lyman. Bumped it up to 5 grains even and got a good target load. So I was above Lyman but below Hodgdon with that one.
I wanted to see what others have done with this bullet and what their results were. I'm going to try the 4.2 grain load but I'm probably going to start lower and work up to it.
Normally I check 2 or 3 different sources, compare data and start working towards my intended goal. Lyman has the only data I can find on this particular bullet so there's nothing else to compare to.

 

[film495]

you should pick up one of the .38 Special loadbooks. they have load data from everywhere all for one cartrdige.

 

[Boom Vang]

I recently tried loading the 105 grain TC cast bullet with HP38 - same propellant as Win 231 - with very poor results. I suppose there is a reason there are no listed loads for this bullet with Win 231, it's not a good load.

Here are some results, fired from a 2" barrel Charter Undercover. Primer Rem 1-1/2, firm crimp, average of 10 shots:

3.4 grains - 556 fps, ES 80. Large amounts of unburnt powder.
4.5 grains - 619 fps, ES 84. Large amounts of unburnt powder.

Same firearm, bullet, primer and crimp, but using Titegroup, with much better results:

3.8 grains - 714 fps, ES 35. Minimal residue.
4.3 grains - 821 fps, ES 32. Minimal residue

 

[lordpaxman]

I’d be interested in what you decide to load and how it performed.
I had to do load work up for a 138gr Bayou BNWC and just extrapolated data from published data. I found Titegroup, WST and Clays were the best for creating super light loads. N320 will work too. W231 is a great powder but the others are a bit faster and cleaner for the really light loads. Good luck.

 

[shanep0017]

I recently tried loading the 105 grain TC cast bullet with HP38 - same propellant as Win 231 - with very poor results. I suppose there is a reason there are no listed loads for this bullet with Win 231, it's not a good load.

Here are some results, fired from a 2" barrel Charter Undercover. Primer Rem 1-1/2, firm crimp, average of 10 shots:

3.4 grains - 556 fps, ES 80. Large amounts of unburnt powder.
4.5 grains - 619 fps, ES 84. Large amounts of unburnt powder.

Same firearm, bullet, primer and crimp, but using Titegroup, with much better results:

3.8 grains - 714 fps, ES 35. Minimal residue.
4.3 grains - 821 fps, ES 32. Minimal residue

The 4th edition Lyman cast bullet handbook has data for the 105 using 231, although I'm not surprised by the unburnt powder. The Lyman book starts at 4.2 grains but I've had some odd results with Lyman data.
I'm considering trying a different powder, either titegroup or 700x just not sure when I'll make it out to the shop.

 

[dannyd]

700x works okay, with the load in the Lyman book I averaged 916 fps for 50 rounds fired.

 

[shanep0017]

700x works okay, with the load in the Lyman book I averaged 916 fps for 50 rounds fired

Did you use the start load or the max load or did you go in between? I believe all of the start loads are quoted in the low 800s

 

[dannyd]

Did you use the start load or the max load or did you go in between? I believe all of the start loads are quoted in the low 800s

I started with 3.5 because 700x for me doesn't meter that well in the powder measure, so I didn't want to get a light charge. I use 700x more for shotgun than anything else.