A video I made showing the 10mm Auto and .45ACP being compared to one and other in a bullet trap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOk_Tra0b6s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOk_Tra0b6s
10mm Auto VS .45ACP video
- Thread starter brigadier
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45_auto
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Wow, thanks, I know what I want to be carrying if I'm ever attacked by phonebooks!
orionengnr
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Dude, do you use an iron lung?
ApacheCoTodd
member
Chester the (phone book) molester.
Thanks for the effort.
Thanks for the effort.Shoobee
member
http://waterguy.us/handgun.htm
Here is a chart that illustrates most handgun cartridges.
Note that the 10mm auto is almost the same in terms of energy as the 44 rem mag.
This makes recoil a significant issue.
Whereas the 45acp is much easier to control. Recoil is a more significant issue in a personal defense weapon against other people.
Bullet traps that measure depth penetration are fun. I have used stacks of newspapers as well as stacks of phone books.
If I really really wanted a powerful handgun, I would get the .45-70 revolver:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...WPT7KJFtPbiAKAmvX7Ag&ved=0CEEQ9QEwBA&dur=1926
However in the meantime my 44 rem mag is more than over-powered for any practical application south of Alaska or Canada.
Here is a chart that illustrates most handgun cartridges.
Note that the 10mm auto is almost the same in terms of energy as the 44 rem mag.
This makes recoil a significant issue.
Whereas the 45acp is much easier to control. Recoil is a more significant issue in a personal defense weapon against other people.
Bullet traps that measure depth penetration are fun. I have used stacks of newspapers as well as stacks of phone books.
If I really really wanted a powerful handgun, I would get the .45-70 revolver:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...WPT7KJFtPbiAKAmvX7Ag&ved=0CEEQ9QEwBA&dur=1926
However in the meantime my 44 rem mag is more than over-powered for any practical application south of Alaska or Canada.
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rswartsell
Member
If you set out to do an "apples to apples" comparison of the two rounds you failed on a lot of levels. I don't mean to be unnecessarily critical but dissemination of disinformation or a superficial understanding of "truth" being presented as definitive is just not acceptable.
At an early point here, you toss out pressure figures as evidence of which is more "powerful" evidencing a misunderstanding of what is going on "in toto".
Pressures developed are a function of case capacity, powder burn speed, bullet weight, etc., etc. and ARE NOT a definitive yardstick for comparing "power" or effectiveness for stated purpose of different cartridges or loads.
Study the debates regarding comparison of .44 mag (high pressure) vs. .45 Colt (lower pressure) for an example.
If you wish to make "laws of physics" type statements such as which is definitely more "powerful" then I suggest you simplify and lean hard on Newton you will then be able to take mass x velocity and compare "energy".
You fail to understand the importance of comparing defined quantities. Full house 230 gr reloads is not nearly specific enough. At what velocity?
Your angle of incidence and assuring same resistance is pitiful. You don't speak to bullet configuration or a myriad of other variables before drawing conclusions.
I don't want to discourage you and if you have a firm interest, then by all means continue but what you have presented is not conclusive of anything much at all.
At an early point here, you toss out pressure figures as evidence of which is more "powerful" evidencing a misunderstanding of what is going on "in toto".
Pressures developed are a function of case capacity, powder burn speed, bullet weight, etc., etc. and ARE NOT a definitive yardstick for comparing "power" or effectiveness for stated purpose of different cartridges or loads.
Study the debates regarding comparison of .44 mag (high pressure) vs. .45 Colt (lower pressure) for an example.
If you wish to make "laws of physics" type statements such as which is definitely more "powerful" then I suggest you simplify and lean hard on Newton you will then be able to take mass x velocity and compare "energy".
You fail to understand the importance of comparing defined quantities. Full house 230 gr reloads is not nearly specific enough. At what velocity?
Your angle of incidence and assuring same resistance is pitiful. You don't speak to bullet configuration or a myriad of other variables before drawing conclusions.
I don't want to discourage you and if you have a firm interest, then by all means continue but what you have presented is not conclusive of anything much at all.
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I don't see 10mm in there at all. I see .40S&W but 10mm Auto is hotter then the .40S&W.
.45ACP does not keep up with the 10mm Auto in terms of speed for weight. Speed for weight, 10mm is almost exactly the same as the hotter .45 Super.
FWIW, I find having a .45 Converted to .460 Rowland more appetizing then a 10mm, and .45ACP is a much safer round for "around the house" so it's not to say the .45 doesn't have it's edge.
.45ACP does not keep up with the 10mm Auto in terms of speed for weight. Speed for weight, 10mm is almost exactly the same as the hotter .45 Super.
FWIW, I find having a .45 Converted to .460 Rowland more appetizing then a 10mm, and .45ACP is a much safer round for "around the house" so it's not to say the .45 doesn't have it's edge.
45_auto
Member
It's just below 40 S&W, just above 400 Corbon.
When are you going to show the experiment where it takes 3 times as long to get 2 A-zone hits at 7 feet (even worse at longer ranges) with a 10mm as opposed to a 45ACP or some other equally controllable caliber?
Or do you just hope that you can get off a single shot, yell "watch out, I've got a 10mm", and scare all the bad guys away?
As Shobee pointed out, if phonebook penetration is really the most important thing to you, get a bigger (more powerful) gun.
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RickMD
Member
Is this supposed to be a joke?
brigadier, I'm not real sure of what your test is supposed to show. Is it your assertion, based on your phonebook test, that the 10mm is a better defensive round? Based on better penetration?
The way I viewed the results of this little test is that the .45 would be a more effective round, of those used. Even the hardball managed to penetrate the first phonebook, which was dry. If I was trying to kill a phonebook the test would tell me that the .45 accomplished nearly 100% energy transfer to the target, where as the 10mm rounds used over penetrated and expended a large amount of their energy on something other than the intended target.
Although I am a fan of the 10mm, due to its flexibility, it didn't grow very much in popularity and for pretty good reason. Ballistically, it's power approaches that of a .41 mag, so if you want that kind of power, you could just get a .41 mag and be able to exceed the 10mm.
From what I remember, the best commercially available defensive rounds for the 10mm were in the 170 to 180gr range of bullets weights. If I remember correctly, this was the ammunition chosen by the FBI when they adopted the 10mm in the form of the Smith 1076 (I believe it was). In the end, they decided that the full house 10mm was just too much and and decided to go with a fed lite load. Shortly thereafter, the .40 S&W was born. The .40 S&W is nothing more than a cut down 10mm case using a small primer pocket. Amazingly enough, the numbers generated by the .40 came pretty darned close to that of the .45 ACP, with the advantage of being able to accommodate a high capacity magazine.
Is the 10mm better than a .45? I don't think so. It's still a fun round and shoots pretty darned flat. I know that it's easier to bang a 12" gong at 100 yards with a Delta Elite than it is with a .45 gov't model. For me, anyway.
The way I viewed the results of this little test is that the .45 would be a more effective round, of those used. Even the hardball managed to penetrate the first phonebook, which was dry. If I was trying to kill a phonebook the test would tell me that the .45 accomplished nearly 100% energy transfer to the target, where as the 10mm rounds used over penetrated and expended a large amount of their energy on something other than the intended target.
Although I am a fan of the 10mm, due to its flexibility, it didn't grow very much in popularity and for pretty good reason. Ballistically, it's power approaches that of a .41 mag, so if you want that kind of power, you could just get a .41 mag and be able to exceed the 10mm.
From what I remember, the best commercially available defensive rounds for the 10mm were in the 170 to 180gr range of bullets weights. If I remember correctly, this was the ammunition chosen by the FBI when they adopted the 10mm in the form of the Smith 1076 (I believe it was). In the end, they decided that the full house 10mm was just too much and and decided to go with a fed lite load. Shortly thereafter, the .40 S&W was born. The .40 S&W is nothing more than a cut down 10mm case using a small primer pocket. Amazingly enough, the numbers generated by the .40 came pretty darned close to that of the .45 ACP, with the advantage of being able to accommodate a high capacity magazine.
Is the 10mm better than a .45? I don't think so. It's still a fun round and shoots pretty darned flat. I know that it's easier to bang a 12" gong at 100 yards with a Delta Elite than it is with a .45 gov't model. For me, anyway.
MachIVshooter
Member
I love the 10mm, but a .44 Mag it is not. Top .44 loads have considerably more kinetic energy than the 10mm. The mighty 10 is the ballistic twin of the .357 magnum (which stands to reason, given their near-identical operating pressures and casse capacities).
Real, full-power loads as you would see from 5" automatics and ~6" revolvers are more like:
9x19mm: 390 ft/lbs
9x19mm +P: 480 ft/lbs
.38 Spl: 250 ft/lbs
.38 Spl. +P: 400 ft/lbs
.357 Magnum: 750 ft/lbs
.40 S&W: 550 ft/lbs
10mm Auto: 780 ft/lbs
.41 Magnum: 1,050 ft/lbs
.44 Magnum: 1,300 ft/lbs
.45 ACP: 420 ft/lbs
.45 ACP +P: 550 ft/lbs
.45 Super: 650 ft/lbs
.45 Colt: 400 ft/lbs
.45 Colt heavy: 1,200 ft/lbs
.454 Casull: 1,600 ft/lbs
Buffalo Bore even has a .44 load that will exceed 1,600, though they're physically too long for me to test in my S&W 629, so you'll have to ask others how the recoil is.
But 10mm recoil being on par with .44 mag? Not even close. More than the sedate .45 ACP, yes, but not uncontraollable by any stetch. Even my wife shoots the lightweight Glock 20 just fine.
Mainsail
Member
Before you buy another gun...
I know you said you have a .44, but do you reload for it and harvest any game with it? How often do you shoot 10mm?
700≠1100 is all I'm sayin'...
As someone pointed out, 10mm is a lot closer to .357 Mag, although 10mm has a leg up in shorter barrels due to greater area.
.44 mag has a great record on whitetail, black bear, coyote, etc. I certainly wouldn't call it "more than over-powered".
RickMD
Member
This is a quote from Frank C. Barnes in his book, Cartridges of the World. "Actual ballistics are generally about 100 fps slower than early factory claims so actual 10mm Automatic factory loads do not significantly exceed 45 Automatic +P ballistics."
Guys, I would have thought it quite obvious but this video was made for layman and vets alike to give a general and fundamental look at the differences in firepower. If I wanted to be specific about application, I would have been.
If you want to get in to deep scientific debate, we can go there too. Youtube viewers probably lack the patience and detailed perspective, but here on forum we can go on about this all day.
If you want to get in to deep scientific debate, we can go there too. Youtube viewers probably lack the patience and detailed perspective, but here on forum we can go on about this all day.
I do allot of different tests with allot of different loads. I use to get opportunities to do so on animal corpses though I don't get to do this any more. Still, I do get to try different applications.
There's a reason why I didn't get in to "what's better then what in what way" as this is a huge and highly complex subject matter. I can however tell you that the medium .44 Magnum loads I've played with usually produce very similar results to full-house 10mm loads.
In any case, the 10mm Auto is not a .44 Magnum or a .357. It's it's own round with it's own properties. It accomplishes allot of the same ends as both but still it's own round. As I stated in the video comments, for around the house, I definitely feel more comfortable with the .45ACP for it's LACK of penetration.
But for sheer fire power, 10mm is superior to the .45ACP, hands down. And for stopping power, 10mm is not only a mathematically better man stopper but the history backs it up. If you study actual cases of full house 10mm rounds being used against personnel, it often sounds like a script from a Dirty Harry movie. 1 shot and they go down like a sack of potatoes.
The good news is that the difference between most pistol rounds records for potency against personnel is surprisingly small, not just between 10mm and .45ACP but even when you throw 9mm, .357 and .44 Magnum in to the mix. Only when you go from pistol to rifle rounds do you see a significant jump in stopping power.
Again, when you get in to cartridge potency against personnel, you are entering a very vast and complex arena.
MachIVshooter
Member
COTW is a great reference material, but it's not perfect.
Full power 10mm loads are significanly above even .45 Super. The 10mm was originally rated at 40,000 PSI, but that was backed off to 37,500. The .45 ACP +P is rated at 23,000 PSI, and the .45 Super has a max pressure of 28,500 PSI. The 10mm has a 24.0 gr. case capacity, the .45 ACP has a 25.0 grain case capacity. The pressure is the difference, just as it is with .38 vs. .357 or .44 Spl. vs. .44 Magnum.
The .460 Rowland will compete with (and slightly exceed) the 10mm, and this is because it operates at 40,000 PSI. The .460 technically has more case capacity than the .45 ACP, but with the bullets being seated to the same OAL, it is the same for all intents and purposes.
Trust me, from a 5" gun, the 10mm is a 750-800 ft/lbs cartridge in true form. 180's @ 1,400 are my pet load.
45_auto
Member
That's why the FBI dropped the 10mm, it was too easy to control and they wanted to give the bad guys a chance.
"Just fine" means different things to different people. To you may mean that she doesn't hit herself in the foot when she pulls the trigger, other people may actually require some kind of controllable follow-up to call it "just fine". Do you have any kind of documentation of your wife's score shooting an IDPA or IPSC match, or any kind of pistol qualification score with a Glock 20? That would give an idea of just how controllable it is compared to weapons other people are shooting.
I managed to talk Johnie Rowland in to converting my USP to .460 Rowland. It's all a matter of $ now. Unfortunately that $ is up to 3 months away.
I wish the .460 Rowland were more popular then it is. It makes more sense to me then any other new pistol round to come out since the 10mm Auto. I suspect that Johny isn't making much effort to market the fact that it will still shoot .45ACP and that it'd gain allot of momentum if more people knew.
I don't know if it's true but I heard from credible sources that the claim that excessive recoil was one of the major reasons for the FBI getting rid of the 10mm is a myth.
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I know some of you have been complaining about the shakiness of the video so I activated youtube's shakiness editor. I haven't seen what the full video is going to look like (it's still in progress at the time of this message) but the previews look allot better.
I can't help you with the breathing. The camera just sucks (see a video I shot free-hand with a borrowed HD camera for comparison ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToQr_VvppeM ). I am planning a documentary series for youtube and am working on getting a much nicer camera for that. So the camera situation will eventually go from very bad to very good. Unfortunately, it'll also take time. Got allot of irons in the fire and have to start deciding on priorities.
I can't help you with the breathing. The camera just sucks (see a video I shot free-hand with a borrowed HD camera for comparison ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToQr_VvppeM ). I am planning a documentary series for youtube and am working on getting a much nicer camera for that. So the camera situation will eventually go from very bad to very good. Unfortunately, it'll also take time. Got allot of irons in the fire and have to start deciding on priorities.
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