10mm Auto VS .45ACP video

[MachIVshooter]

Do you have any kind of documentation of your wife's score shooting an IDPA or IPSC match, or any kind of pistol qualification score with a Glock 20? That would give an idea of just how controllable it is compared to weapons other people are shooting.

For IDPA or IPSC, I wouldn't be shooting full power loads. Of course the recovery time is longer. I never said it didn't have recoil, I said it's not unmanageable.

Looking at it the other way, would you want to use the cream puff loads one runs for competition when it's a life or death situation? I doubt it....

 

[brigadier]

Even with Double Tap loads, recoil on my 10mm Beretta feels very similar to the recoil on my CZ-52. I've heard people say the CZ-52s kick is on the harder side of the service pistol spectrum but never heard a single complaint and I've been a CZ-52 nut and associating with CZ-52 nuts for a decade now.

A fellow at a nearby gun store describes the 10mm as kicking like a hot .45. I think that's the most accurate way to put it.

I might be willing to bring a 10mm in to competition just for the flatter trajectory and longer range but even for those who wouldn't, it's not like you are likely to get in to a shoot-out against a competitive shooter. 99% of the people you're likely to get in to a real shoot-out with don't even know how to pull the trigger right, let alone have the skills to win a shooting match.

 

[45_auto]

Looking at it the other way, would you want to use the cream puff loads one runs for competition when it's a life or death situation?

Most of the 9mm loads out there are LESS than "creampuff loads" by your definition. They aren't powerful enough to be used in competition, including the one used by the US military. Lots of people (cops, military, etc) regularly trust their lives to 9mm's, and lots of dead people on the wrong end of the barrel would dispute your opinion of the effectiveness of those loads.

In the real world, you'll find that people don't worry about the numbers behind a bullet when it's coming in their direction, and fall down dead because it's the fearsome 10mm. A lot of noise and muzzle flash and a 10mm bullet hitting the dirt somewhere behind them won't stop them.

 

[agtman]

For IDPA or IPSC, I wouldn't be shooting full power loads. Of course the recovery time is longer. I never said it didn't have recoil, I said it's not unmanageable.
Looking at it the other way, would you want to use the cream puff loads one runs for competition when it's a life or death situation? I doubt it....

Well said.

That's why the people who retort with, "Well the 10mm's split-times are slower than [pick one] ...," just don't get it.

"Split-times" are for gun-gamers. Nobody cares about your split-times in a gun-fight, least of all the bad guy.

Assuming a real-world life-threatening encounter that would justify DF, the only "time" that matters is how fast you can draw from concealment (or your duty rig) and get off that first COM hit. If you've trained up to shooting full-power loads in your carry-caliber, that's all that matters.

For serious 10mm users - most of whom aren't weekend-warrior/hobby-shooters plinking away with .40-level 10mm ammo - they've already put in sufficient practice time with the high-performance stuff they carry on the street to respond quickly and accurately to a threat.

 

[MachIVshooter]

A lot of noise and muzzle flash and a 10mm bullet hitting the dirt somewhere behind them won't stop them.

Agreed. But a lot of noise and muzzle flash and a 180 gr. bullet impacting their body at over 1,300 FPS is quite a different story.

I have no problem emptying a 10mm in roughly the same time and with accuracy equal to doing it with a 9mm, .40 or .45. Someone who is less proficient or not as strong may, but that is not my concern.

As for effectiveness, we can debate that until the cows come home, and their is plenty of arguement both ways. Some studies show that handgun wounds from common cartridges tend to be indistinguishable from one another, others show that larger diameter and more powerful rounds have an edge. I am of the camp believing that shot placement and proper bullet selection aside, the more potent cartridges are (logically) at an advantage for stopping an attacker.

That said, I carry .380, 9mm, .45 and 10mm handguns. Which one depends on my attire, which in turn is dependent on the environment I'll be in and the season/weather.

 

[45_auto]

Agreed. But a lot of noise and muzzle flash and a 180 gr. bullet impacting their body at over 1,300 FPS is quite a different story.

Yep, it'll be indistuinguishable from a 125 gr. bullet at 1,400 FPS, or a 230 gr. bullet at 850 FPs, or a 180 gr. bullet at 1,100 FPS. They're all wimpy handgun rounds.

Sounds like we're on pretty much the same page. I also carry 10mm, 45ACP, 9mm, and 380ACP depending on the weather and the environment I'll be in. Doesn't make any difference to me, they're all going to be about equally effective. I'm not going to shoot once then stand there looking to see if my shot was effective or not.

For serious 10mm users - most of whom aren't weekend-warrior/hobby-shooters plinking away with .40-level 10mm ammo - they've already put in sufficient practice time with the high-performance stuff they carry on the street to respond quickly and accurately to a threat.

Glad to hear that your "Internet Commando Card" came in the mail - just think how good those guys who carry 50AE Desert Eagles must be!

 

[RedHeadHunter]

Not disagreeing with the 10mm vs 45acp, but if penetration is the main criteria then my 7.62x25 in my CZ52 (makes it through 3 landscape timbers) is way more powerful than my 44 mag Redhawk (makes it through 2 landscape timbers).

 

[45_auto]

Not disagreeing with the 10mm vs 45acp, but if penetration is the main criteria then my 7.62x25 in my CZ52 (makes it through 3 landscape timbers) is way more powerful than my 44 mag Redhawk (makes it through 2 landscape timbers).

This is a discussion of the power of the 10mm. Please do not confuse anyone by bringing reason, logic, or facts into this thread.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Yep, it'll be indistuinguishable from a 125 gr. bullet at 1,400 FPS, or a 230 gr. bullet at 850 FPs, or a 180 gr. bullet at 1,100 FPS. They're all wimpy handgun rounds.

Maybe, maybe not.

Kinetic energy in and of itself does not kill, we know this. What it translates to ballistically is the ability to do work. Greater energy can drive the bullet deeper, expend it wider, or both. If power didn't matter, we would all be carrying mousegun cartridges for their lower recoil and the ability to fit more of them in the magazine.

Shot placement is most important, followed by bullet selection. No secret there. But it would be foolhardy to ignore the importance of having enough oomph behind that well placed and properly selected bullet to drive it deep enough.

Not disagreeing with the 10mm vs 45acp, but if penetration is the main criteria then my 7.62x25 in my CZ52 (makes it through 3 landscape timbers) is way more powerful than my 44 mag Redhawk (makes it through 2 landscape timbers).

Penetration through wood (or any number of other materials) is not a good proxy for performance in living creatures.

 

[45_auto]

How about phonebook penetration, think that would be a better proxy? Maybe we could get someone to make a video of it!