10mm es vs accuracy

[Hugger-4641]

So I've been doing some ladder loading for my G20 and I'm curious for your thoughts on some of my loads and what you would expect. So far I've only chronographed these, so this is data is only for velocity. I hope to do accuracy comparison soon.
All of these were the same 155 fmj from Everglades with a coal of 1.25, new Starline brass, and CCI 300 LPP, 5 shot strings.

Hs-6, 10.7gr , avg 1374fps, es 23, sd 9.52

WIN 231, 7.3 gr, avg 1228fps, es 22, sd 8.7

AA7, 11.3gr, avg 1255fps, es 35, sd 15.4

Vintage Red Dot, 7.6gr, avg 1254fps, es 22, sd 10.1

I realize there are some abstract considerations that may show up in accuracy, for example the 231 seemed to be the smoothest and most tame recoil wise, but it was also the slowest avg. What do the ballistics experts here predict will be the most accurate of the these loads just based on this data?

 

[joneb]

For handgun I have found low ES and SD does not always equal the best accuracy.

 

[fxvr5]

Your statistics won't tell you which is more accurate. The target will.

And see this; https://americanhandgunner.com/handguns/exclusive-consistent-velocity-accuracy/

 

[lordpaxman]

What do the ballistics experts here predict will be the most accurate of the these loads just based on this data?

I don’t identify as one of those. I can tell you I r an engineer, and when I first got my chrono, I looked for the lowest ES/SD for my pistol loads expecting that to be “the one load that will rule them all”. For pistol those stats will tell you more about your process and components than anything else. I use them to estimate the probability of passing a chrono stage and that’s it. Rifle is a whole different story. Good luck.

 

[Hugger-4641]

Thanks for the replies.
I do like to try to predict my results and see what I am wrong or right about!
I was shooting the chrono off my back deck, which is 12' feet above ground , so my "target" as I was shooting over the chrono was just a clay pigeon 100yds away. I've got to load up a few more rds before I test accuracy, but just based on feel from shooting over the chono I think the 231 load is the sweet one for this bullet, but I've got a lot of that Red Dot to use up so I hope its close. We'll see

 

[Kaldor]

I have found that SD/ES is not the end all be all of benchmark for pistol accuracy, but it is a good indicator. On my handloads I like to see SDs under 15fps, and if I can get single digits, Ill go with with. I develop my loads purely over a chronograph as the chrono never lies, whereas I could be a horrible shot that day.
I dont think pistol testing at 25 yards or even 50 feet is nearly as influenced by SD/ES as say shooting rifle at 500. I have shot some factory ammo that has 30+ SDs and the accuracy is not near what my handloads are. Ive also shot some steel case that has 50+ SDs and its really bad, more like a pattern than a group. That observation has given me the observation that SD/ES does have some influence, but only at higher values, say above 20 fps and ranges around 25+ yards. My most current accurate load is from my 1911 which is a 230gr Acme HiTek over 4.6gr of TiteGroup at 784fps with SD of 2.3, ES of 5. It will shoot better than I can and 2-3" groups at 50 yards are very much a reality when my buddy shoots my pistol.

My general rules for pistol loading:
Determine proper COAL by doing a "plunk test" for that pistol. If this load will be run in multiple pistols, I test in all.
Determine that COAL will function with a dummy round in both the magazine and will feed in the pistol(s)
Determine desired velocity and look at load data as a general guide for approximate book velocity and decide where I need to be
Load 5 each charge for load testing
Shoot those over chrono and evaluate for SD/ES as well as velocity. Im not worried about accuracy at this point and just makes the process take way longer
If the SD/ES is good and happens to hit the velocity Im looking for then I load 5 more and shoot them at 50' for accuracy, and this will most likely be the end of it
If the ES/SD is bad (20+), I will look at velocity, and if its what Im looking for, I will shoot 5 more for accuracy at 50'
If the ES/SD is good, but Im not seeing the expected velocities as in they are low, I will bump powder charge and reshoot

I always check for accuracy when I think I have the load I want. I just use the chrono as a shortcut to get there. Ive never seen a load with good SD/ES not be accurate.

 

[Hugger-4641]

I have found that SD/ES is not the end all be all of benchmark for pistol accuracy, but it is a good indicator. On my handloads I like to see SDs under 15fps, and if I can get single digits, Ill go with with. I develop my loads purely over a chronograph as the chrono never lies, whereas I could be a horrible shot that day.
I dont think pistol testing at 25 yards or even 50 feet is nearly as influenced by SD/ES as say shooting rifle at 500. I have shot some factory ammo that has 30+ SDs and the accuracy is not near what my handloads are. Ive also shot some steel case that has 50+ SDs and its really bad, more like a pattern than a group. That observation has given me the observation that SD/ES does have some influence, but only at higher values, say above 20 fps and ranges around 25+ yards. My most current accurate load is from my 1911 which is a 230gr Acme HiTek over 4.6gr of TiteGroup at 784fps with SD of 2.3, ES of 5. It will shoot better than I can and 2-3" groups at 50 yards are very much a reality when my buddy shoots my pistol.

My general rules for pistol loading:
Determine proper COAL by doing a "plunk test" for that pistol. If this load will be run in multiple pistols, I test in all.
Determine that COAL will function with a dummy round in both the magazine and will feed in the pistol(s)
Determine desired velocity and look at load data as a general guide for approximate book velocity and decide where I need to be
Load 5 each charge for load testing
Shoot those over chrono and evaluate for SD/ES as well as velocity. Im not worried about accuracy at this point and just makes the process take way longer
If the SD/ES is good and happens to hit the velocity Im looking for then I load 5 more and shoot them at 50' for accuracy, and this will most likely be the end of it
If the ES/SD is bad (20+), I will look at velocity, and if its what Im looking for, I will shoot 5 more for accuracy at 50'
If the ES/SD is good, but Im not seeing the expected velocities as in they are low, I will bump powder charge and reshoot

I always check for accuracy when I think I have the load I want. I just use the chrono as a shortcut to get there. Ive never seen a load with good SD/ES not be accurate.

That's sort of what I'm doing. I had a rough velocity in mind that I wanted with this bullet because penetration and KE are what I'm after. I'm not really trying to develop a match load, but I do want as accurate as I can get within my desired velocities. 1250 to 1350fps is what I'm looking for, but if it's just under 1250 or pushes past 1400, is accurate, and still under max charge, I'm ok with that.,

I loaded ladders of each powder up to or just past what I thought would get me the Ve I want, short of going over max. The ones I mentioned above were the best Sd/ES for each powder group that was within or close enough the velocity range I was looking for. I actually had a Red Dot load around 1050fps that had Es of 12, but that's outside my desired velocity range.
As soon as I can get some Blue Dot, Longshot, or AA9 I want to try those also.

 

[bullseye308]

The limited time I used a chrono I was mostly worried about not loading into +P territory and accuracy was king. ES and SD could be high or average and a couple times low, but I had loads that shot very will in all ranges with different pistols. For me at that time, I just ran the numbers and figured for pistols it didn’t matter much, but rifle was different, especially as the distance increased.
Like I said, in my limited experience 15-20 years ago, it wasn’t really much more than another data point. Or maybe I just didn’t understand it correctly at that time. I’d shoot for groups then worry about the numbers.

 

[AJC1]

That's sort of what I'm doing. I had a rough velocity in mind that I wanted with this bullet because penetration and KE are what I'm after. I'm not really trying to develop a match load, but I do want as accurate as I can get within my desired velocities. 1250 to 1350fps is what I'm looking for, but if it's just under 1250 or pushes past 1400, is accurate, and still under max charge, I'm ok with that.,

I loaded ladders of each powder up to or just past what I thought would get me the Ve I want, short of going over max. The ones I mentioned above were the best Sd/ES for each powder group that was within or close enough the velocity range I was looking for. I actually had a Red Dot load around 1050fps that had Es of 12, but that's outside my desired velocity range.
As soon as I can get some Blue Dot, Longshot, or AA9 I want to try those also.

I have you covered on #9. We both wait for blue dot.

 

[Kaldor]

That's sort of what I'm doing. I had a rough velocity in mind that I wanted with this bullet because penetration and KE are what I'm after. I'm not really trying to develop a match load, but I do want as accurate as I can get within my desired velocities. 1250 to 1350fps is what I'm looking for, but if it's just under 1250 or pushes past 1400, is accurate, and still under max charge, I'm ok with that.,

I loaded ladders of each powder up to or just past what I thought would get me the Ve I want, short of going over max. The ones I mentioned above were the best Sd/ES for each powder group that was within or close enough the velocity range I was looking for. I actually had a Red Dot load around 1050fps that had Es of 12, but that's outside my desired velocity range.
As soon as I can get some Blue Dot, Longshot, or AA9 I want to try those also.

Your SDs look fine, so I now I would test for accuracy if you are happy with the velocity.
Do you have any pressure signs with the Red Dot at your current load? Just asking in case you did want to see 1300+ fps and you did say you have a bunch of that powder kicking about. If you are at the upper end, you can creep up on it, say .2 grain at a time, and just look for pressure signs. You may end up pulling a few rounds down if it gets over pressure, but thats the only real way to find the max load. Then again, if you are good with it, then good enough.

The limited time I used a chrono I was mostly worried about not loading into +P territory and accuracy was king. ES and SD could be high or average and a couple times low, but I had loads that shot very will in all ranges with different pistols. For me at that time, I just ran the numbers and figured for pistols it didn’t matter much, but rifle was different, especially as the distance increased.
Like I said, in my limited experience 15-20 years ago, it wasn’t really much more than another data point. Or maybe I just didn’t understand it correctly at that time. I’d shoot for groups then worry about the numbers.

Good point. Some guys dont want to deal with the potential issues with a +P loading, so I understand that. Im not generally afraid to load to +P or beyond, guys have been doing for stuff like 9mm Major loadings for years. Book data is exactly what it is, which is a guide. If youre happy with it, thats all that matters

 

[Hugger-4641]

Do you have any pressure signs with the Red Dot at your current load? Just

I didn't have any pressure signs so far. I actually went up to 8.2gr of Red Dot for this test and avg was about 1340fps. I could probably go higher, but the ES got worse after 7.8. So, if 7.6 to 7.8 is accurate, I'll probably stay with that for this bullet. 11gr of Hs-6 gave me 1420 with this bullet, so it or one of the other powders is probably better if I want hot loads.

 

[Hugger-4641]

have you covered on #9. We both wait for blue dot.

Awesome Do you need any 4198 or 296?

 

[lordpaxman]

I was shooting the chrono off my back deck, which is 12' feet above ground , so my "target" as I was shooting over the chrono was just a clay pigeon 100yds away.

Nice! When I had my shoot through chrono, I’d put the target right behind the sky screens to avoid having the chrono suffer from lead poisoning. Just sayin….

 

[AJC1]

Awesome Do you need any 4198 or 296?

ill take either... Never used 110 or 296 but the need for testing continues