10mm or 357 mag

[MachIVshooter]

I don't see it or the .38 SPL going the way of the .44 Mag, .41 Mag, .44 SPL, or other revolvers and their cartridges.

.357/.38 spl are by far the most popular revolver cartridges, but .44 Mag is also still quite popular, and .44 spl. will be around as long as the mag is. In fact, I'll be picking up my Charter Bulldog Pug .44 spl. in the next day or two.

.41 mag has always had a steady but unspectacular following. That's probably not going to change, but I don't think it'll fade into obsolescence any time soon, either. That said, I see little use for it, since I already own .357 and .44 caliber guns, which eclipse the .41 mag on both ends with their flexibility.

Interestingly, the .41 has a similar history to the 10mm WRT law enforcement. Unlike the .41, though, the 10mm offers increased perfromance and capacity over it's predecessor that is chambered in the same size guns; .41 requires the same large frame as .44, so there's little reason for most to opt for the more obscure and less powerful round. This is why 10mm has a much more solid foothold in the market and continues to increase in popularity, while the .41 is doing what it has been for nearly 50 years; Just hanging in there.

 

[2zulu1]

This makes no sense. Youre talking about a 200fps difference when comparing the velocities of 40S&W and 10mm in every bullet weight. I HIGHLY doubt an extra 200fps is going to make a significant difference in a bullets performance. If that were the case, I could argue the .357 loses the advantage of being able to be used in a 8" revolver for increased velocity since certain bullets weights are designed to be used in a 4" gun. Again, that argument doesnt hold any water.

Is your statement based upon experience or opinion?

I've loaded and tested both the 10mm and .357mag to very fast velocities, there's an obvious advantage to the .357mag shooting high velocity bullets.

As an example, this 180gr Gold Dot came apart ~1300fps;



Dropping the MV down to 1267fps and against a very tough bone barrier, the 180gr GD performed much better;



I've done a lot of bullet testing, including 10mm with 6" barrels, sometimes you'll get nice expansion and sometimes bullets will fall apart, like this 155gr XTP in the high 1500s;



Hornady's published data shows the velocity design window for the 10mm/155gr XTP is 850fps to 1300fps

At 1420fps, this 155gr Gold Dot over expanded resulting in diminutive penetration, clearly beyond its velocity design window;



As you can see, the deep cavity 155gr GD is not designed for fast velocities, unlike the Gold Dots designed for the .357mag's velocities that include lever action carbines.

Bob

 

[MachIVshooter]

As an example, this 180gr Gold Dot came apart ~1300fps...........Dropping the MV down to 1267fps and against a very tough bone barrier, the 180gr GD performed much better;

I submit to you that the different medium was the cause of the results, not the ~40 FPS velocity change. That's barely more than standard deviation within a batch. It's also an overpressure load for .40 S&W.

I'll cuncur that 165 and lower are best suited to the more moderate .40 S&W velocities, but the 180's and up in real test mediums perform quite well at 10mm velocities.

Gold dots also tend to exhibit violent expansion in almost any caliber, even at moderate velocities. That includes .357". Golden Sabres, Sierra's and XTP's are much better for higher velocity use.

 

[2zulu1]

180's work pretty well at 1,400 FPS (I use Golden Sabres) , and 200+ are specifically designed for 10mm. If you want a controlled expansion bullet with good penetration for your 10mm, try the 200 gr. XTP.

And that "real world database" is bunk. For all the effort M&S put into it, it still amounts to nothing more than a humongous pile of anecdotes. In another thread, I demonstrated where some of their data shows a .32 ACP as being more effective than a .44 Mag. There are also loads that they showed as having greater than 100% effectiveness; How is that possible?

Is the 10mm a more effective defense cartridge than .40 S&W? Probably not, there are probably very few instances in which the increased power realizes any benefit on a human target. Why, then, do I carry one? Well, I have big hands, so 10mm guns tend to fit me better than .40 S&W models, and the capacity is the same. And I doubt anyone involved in a defensive shooting ever wished for a less potent cartridge.

One can reasonably deduce that the 10mm will be at least as effective as the .40 S&W.

The .40 S&W is to the 10mm what the .308 is to the .30-06; A cartridge developed to fit ina shorter action and achieve similar ballistics with the light to mid-weight bullets. Of course, the degree of separation between 10mm & .40 is greater than that between .30-06 and .308. No one is arguing that the .308 is more effective than the .30-06, so why then, would some suggest that the 10mm is not as good as the .40? Does not compute. Unless your hands don't fit the larger frame or you always buy factory ammo and cost is a concern, the 10mm makes more sense in a given platform.

We agree on M&S. One of my issues with the 10mm is; where's the feedback on OIS for those LEAs who carry the 10mm? By comparison, forum members (North Caroline SP and Texas DPS) on other boards have great praise for the .357SIG/125gr Gold Dots for penetrating auto glass.

Yes, I like the 10mm/180gr Golden Sabers also. One of the more remarkable barrier tests I did about 6 years ago was with this combination against a ~1/8" to 3/16" steel barrier at a very shallow angle - no deflection;



About 1370fps and here's the gaping hole caused by the GS;



I like what I've seen thus far with your EAA 10mm reports.

Design velocity window comparisons from Hornady data regarding their XTPs;

10mm 155gr - 850fps to 1300fps _ sectional density .138
.357mag 158gr HP - 700fps to 1400fps
.357mag 158gr FP - 1150fps to 1800fps _ sectional density .177

10mm 180gr - 750fps to 1450fps _ sectional density .161
.357mag 180gr - 900 to 1700fps _ sectional density .202

10mm 200gr - 700fps to 1200fps _ sectional density .179

The forward half of this 165gr Gold Dot blew off high 1200s to low 1300s;



At 1492fps (M686/6") this 158gr Gold Dot lost 22grs as it blew out the back of a bleached out cow bone;



No deflection;



In a later test, I shot a 10mm/200gr XTP ~1220fps into the bone knuckle causing total bone fragmentation and only very small pieces of lead/bullet jacket were recovered.

I have both a G20 and G20 SF, plus a 6" KKM barrel that can put up nice velocity numbers, but the 686 shoots a lot softer, plus it has a very smooth target trigger that's a plus during fast double action shooting.

Bob

 

[2zulu1]

I submit to you that the different medium was the cause of the results, not the ~40 FPS velocity change. That's barely more than standard deviation within a batch. It's also an overpressure load for .40 S&W.

I'll cuncur that 165 and lower are best suited to the more moderate .40 S&W velocities, but the 180's and up in real test mediums perform quite well at 10mm velocities.

Gold dots also tend to exhibit violent expansion in almost any caliber, even at moderate velocities. That includes .357". Golden Sabres, Sierra's and XTP's are much better for higher velocity use.

180gr GD same medium, 0.614";



10mm/180gr Nosler 0.720" mid 1264s



.357mag/180gr Partition, MV 1292fps, 0.637";



It appears that high 1200s to low 1300s is the velocity window when a number of 10mm/180s begin to come apart; therefore, targeting mid 1200s gets better expansion reliability.

As a comparison, we experimented with 124gr XTPs (.357SIG and .38Super) to ascertain their upper velocity range. What we tested in water, to capture and measure the bullet's expansion/weight) was confirmed in real world feral goat culling. With the 124gr XTP, they begin to come apart in the upper 1300s to low 1400s, keep them mid 1300s and they are reliable expanders.

I don't have feral goats to cull with the 10mm, but I see a parallel between 9mm design bullets at upper .357SIG/.38Super velocities and the .40/10mm.

Anyway, here's a .357mag/125gr Golden Saber that held together with excellent expansion, 1521fps and 0.613"



Bob

 

[357 Terms]

The bottom line is this: there are very few bullets designed specifically for the 10mm and its velocities. I agree with Mach4 that 180grn and higher is Ideal for the 10, yet there is not much of a choice. The 40S&W with 155 and 165grn bullets is just about as effective for self defense, so why bother? The 357 wins because of better sectional density, versatility, platform, availability and flat out performance. Please dont get me wrong but; the 10mm is a powerful auto caliber, it just doesn't really have a place.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

The 10mm still beats the .357 in comparebly sized guns for concealment. There is a place for something like that. I can pack a 10mm 1911 or Glock 20 more easily and comfortably than a 4" .357. The .357 just gets too big to gain any power advantage over the 10mm. Plus, I'm sure there are a few 10mm bullets that can hold together under the upper end velocities of the 10mm, but, until we get one verified, try the 200XTP or perhaps the Nosler 180gr.

 

[481]

2Z1-

Nice pictures and well presented. I'd be surprised to see less.

Did we ever T&E the 200 gr. XTP in the 10mm?

 

[2zulu1]

2Z1-

Nice pictures and well presented. I'd be surprised to see less.

Did we ever T&E the 200 gr. XTP in the 10mm?

I've tested the 10mm/200gr XTP a number of times in different situations. The test we evaluated was when both the large leg bone and bullet literally blew up. Personally, I would not carry the 10mm/200gr XTP on the trail because I've witnessed a number of case/core separations upon bullets hitting small branches that resulted deflection/keyholing - the same can be said for a number of non-bonded JHP bullets. For trail, the 200gr WFNGC would be a better choice IMO if one wants to carry the 10mm.

For the .357mag/180gr, in addition to the XTP, both Nosler Partition and Swift A-frame bullets are premium designs available to hunters; plus there's also the 170gr Gold Dot FP and Remington 165gr Core Lokt.

Bob

 

[Harley Quinn]

2zulu1,
Thanks for all the show and tell

Regards

 

[CraigC]

I've tested the 10mm/200gr XTP a number of times in different situations. The test we evaluated was when both the large leg bone and bullet literally blew up. Personally, I would not carry the 10mm/200gr XTP on the trail because I've witnessed a number of case/core separations upon bullets hitting small branches that resulted deflection/keyholing - the same can be said for a number of non-bonded JHP bullets. For trail, the 200gr WFNGC would be a better choice IMO if one wants to carry the 10mm.

This seems to not be exclusive to the 10mm but other XTP's as well. Some do well, some don't. After seeing what the 180gr Gold Dot does at 1500fps, I am very leery of using it on critters and figured the XTP might be a better choice. I guess not. What we need is a good 200gr Gold Dot JSP that will behave like the 270gr .44 bullet, rather than a cavernous JHP. Although I do have some 200gr LBT's from Beartooth that I haven't tried yet.

I have experienced total jacket/core separation with Hornady's 300gr .405 bullet. Had one blow up on a doe's shoulder and promptly switched to Woodleighs.

 

[481]

I've tested the 10mm/200gr XTP a number of times in different situations. The test we evaluated was when both the large leg bone and bullet literally blew up. Personally, I would not carry the 10mm/200gr XTP on the trail because I've witnessed a number of case/core separations upon bullets hitting small branches that resulted deflection/keyholing - the same can be said for a number of non-bonded JHP bullets. For trail, the 200gr WFNGC would be a better choice IMO if one wants to carry the 10mm.

For the .357mag/180gr, in addition to the XTP, both Nosler Partition and Swift A-frame bullets are premium designs available to hunters; plus there's also the 170gr Gold Dot FP and Remington 165gr Core Lokt.

Bob

OK, that's why I couldn't find the results on our spreadsheet. Nothing to jog my memory and I do remember it now even though it was a while back. For some reason I thought that we had 4LD baselined that one at some point.

Have to admit that my favorite test was when you turned that 10mm 155 gr Gold Dot danged near inside-out. While it was a "failure", I still enjoyed since the "little kid" in me still has a thing for "fireworks".

 

[Bama5.0]

I know this thread has been dead for a couple of weeks, but I have done a bunch of 10mm bullet testing that I believe would interest most of you. I found this thread searching for 155gr Gold Dot expansion pictures, as I'm about to test it. I have tested almost every SD .400" bullet out there (I've got several left, and will keep going as long as I can find more new bullets to test). I used my Glock 29 for all of the testing, and every bullet was pushed as fast as possible without blowing up my gun. My goal was to see which bullets could handle 10mm velocities. I know the G20 would have been better for achieving huge velocities, but I wanted to see which bullets were the best for self defense, and the G29 is the more practical platform for SD use. Plus, it's all I had when I started. Besides, I pushed these bullets pretty hard. I got some good velocity for most out of the little 3.78" barrel.

The medium I used was wax. If you've ever seen The Bullet Test Tube, it's very similar, just homemade. It's about a 55/45 mixture of paraffin wax/Vaseline. The reason wax is good is because it captures not only penetration and the bullet, but also captures the wound cavity. Upon cross-section, it lets you view the actual wound profile. This cannot be done with other media. By examining professional gelatin penetration results from the same gun, and comparing them with my data, it seems penetration in gelatin is about 1.8 times greater. So, 10" of penetration in my wax tube would equate to roughly 18" in ballistic gelatin.

Anyway, here's a link to Glock Talk, where I've posted all the work/data. I hope it helps you guys decide on a good 10mm bullet. My name over there is 21Carrier.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1340792

EDIT: By the way, if you just check it out quickly, it's best to skip ahead to the later pages. The first few tests were not as good, as I was perfecting my technique. Later tests were better. So, if the first few look like crap, skip ahead and check out the later tests.

Here are the bullet's I've tested (off the top of my head):
-125gr Barnes TAC-XP
-135gr Nosler JHP
-135gr Sierra JHP
-135gr Pow'RBall (reloaded to 1500fps, factory will be tested soon)
-150gr Nosler JHP
-155gr Silvertip (twice, with two different loads)
-155gr XTP
-156gr Lyman Cast Devastator HP
-165gr Golden Saber
-165gr Gold Dot
-175gr Silvertip (both factory and hot reloaded)
-180gr XTP
-180gr XTP (modified for greater expansion)
-180gr Gold Dot
-180gr PDX1 Bonded
-180gr Rainier Plated HP
-200gr Black Talon (reloaded hot)
-200gr XTP
-200gr XTP (modified for greater expansion)
-200gr Double Tap WFNGC (hand-loaded, not DT factory)
-And I'm sure I forgot about one or two. I still have a factory 135gr Pow'RBall to test, a 180gr Starfire, a 155gr Gold Dot, and I've worked the 125gr Barnes TAC-XP up to a much higher velocity, so I will retest it soon.

I recorded penetration, wound cavity diameter, retained mass, expansion, velocity, etc. for each bullet/load. Some of the above bullets are not available as components, so I pulled them from either 10mm or .40S&W ammo. Anyway, hope it helps.

Also, I rarely come to THR, and I had forgotten I had even registered here a while back. Not that it's not a great forum, it's just that I have lots of people I know at GlockTalk, so I usually spend time over there. If you have a question or a bullet test request, let me know. If I don't answer on here, it's just that I forgot to check back. If that happens, PM me at GT, and I'll respond.

 

[Rob Malins]

10 mm barrel needed

I am buying an STI Perfect 10 next week. It comes with a 6 inch Schumann barrel. I want to shoot suppressed occasionally, but don't know where to find a match grade 6.5 inch barrel to accept the threading. Can anyone advise me on this?

 

[303tom]

.357 Mag. is a little faster.

 

[Super Sneaky Steve]

If I bought a 10mm it might make me go broke. The .357 is fun, cheap and is the best proven man stopper (as in dead people not jelly or any other test).

 

[2zulu1]

I know this thread has been dead for a couple of weeks, but I have done a bunch of 10mm bullet testing that I believe would interest most of you. I found this thread searching for 155gr Gold Dot expansion pictures, as I'm about to test it. I have tested almost every SD .400" bullet out there (I've got several left, and will keep going as long as I can find more new bullets to test). I used my Glock 29 for all of the testing, and every bullet was pushed as fast as possible without blowing up my gun. My goal was to see which bullets could handle 10mm velocities. I know the G20 would have been better for achieving huge velocities, but I wanted to see which bullets were the best for self defense, and the G29 is the more practical platform for SD use. Plus, it's all I had when I started. Besides, I pushed these bullets pretty hard. I got some good velocity for most out of the little 3.78" barrel.

The medium I used was wax. If you've ever seen The Bullet Test Tube, it's very similar, just homemade. It's about a 55/45 mixture of paraffin wax/Vaseline. The reason wax is good is because it captures not only penetration and the bullet, but also captures the wound cavity. Upon cross-section, it lets you view the actual wound profile. This cannot be done with other media. By examining professional gelatin penetration results from the same gun, and comparing them with my data, it seems penetration in gelatin is about 1.8 times greater. So, 10" of penetration in my wax tube would equate to roughly 18" in ballistic gelatin.

Anyway, here's a link to Glock Talk, where I've posted all the work/data. I hope it helps you guys decide on a good 10mm bullet. My name over there is 21Carrier.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1340792

EDIT: By the way, if you just check it out quickly, it's best to skip ahead to the later pages. The first few tests were not as good, as I was perfecting my technique. Later tests were better. So, if the first few look like crap, skip ahead and check out the later tests.

Here are the bullet's I've tested (off the top of my head):
-125gr Barnes TAC-XP
-135gr Nosler JHP
-135gr Sierra JHP
-135gr Pow'RBall (reloaded to 1500fps, factory will be tested soon)
-150gr Nosler JHP
-155gr Silvertip (twice, with two different loads)
-155gr XTP
-156gr Lyman Cast Devastator HP
-165gr Golden Saber
-165gr Gold Dot
-175gr Silvertip (both factory and hot reloaded)
-180gr XTP
-180gr XTP (modified for greater expansion)
-180gr Gold Dot
-180gr PDX1 Bonded
-180gr Rainier Plated HP
-200gr Black Talon (reloaded hot)
-200gr XTP
-200gr XTP (modified for greater expansion)
-200gr Double Tap WFNGC (hand-loaded, not DT factory)
-And I'm sure I forgot about one or two. I still have a factory 135gr Pow'RBall to test, a 180gr Starfire, a 155gr Gold Dot, and I've worked the 125gr Barnes TAC-XP up to a much higher velocity, so I will retest it soon.

I recorded penetration, wound cavity diameter, retained mass, expansion, velocity, etc. for each bullet/load. Some of the above bullets are not available as components, so I pulled them from either 10mm or .40S&W ammo. Anyway, hope it helps.

Also, I rarely come to THR, and I had forgotten I had even registered here a while back. Not that it's not a great forum, it's just that I have lots of people I know at GlockTalk, so I usually spend time over there. If you have a question or a bullet test request, let me know. If I don't answer on here, it's just that I forgot to check back. If that happens, PM me at GT, and I'll respond.

Are you saying the illustrated paraffin/vaseline wound cavity equals comminution in soft tissue?

 

[Austinguy23]

If you look at the shooting statistics, the .357 Magnum is the absolute king. In fact, the only thing the two ballistics camps (jello junkies vs morgue monsters) can agree on is that the 125 grain .357 Magnum has superior ballistics over all calibers.

The 10mm is an impressive round but it tends to over-penetrate. I'd be very careful with ammo selection should you go that route...