10yr Old Shooting 1st time. Irons or Optic?
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Floppy_D
Member In Memoriam
I took my 14yo brother in law shooting, and I brought scoped and non-scoped 22s.
I gave him the iron-sight 22 first, and had him hit 3 soda cans, one after another, 20 paces. He did so without a hitch. I had him do it a few times until he could hit the third before the 1st stopped moving. Then I switched him to the scope. He saw that it took a little longer to get a good sight picture. I pointed out that there are times when open sights are the best, and scopes are the best. He preferred open because thats what the AK was, and that's what he wanted to shoot the most.
I gave him the iron-sight 22 first, and had him hit 3 soda cans, one after another, 20 paces. He did so without a hitch. I had him do it a few times until he could hit the third before the 1st stopped moving. Then I switched him to the scope. He saw that it took a little longer to get a good sight picture. I pointed out that there are times when open sights are the best, and scopes are the best. He preferred open because thats what the AK was, and that's what he wanted to shoot the most.
Whenever I took my nieces and nephew out to the range for their first times, I alway brought an example of each. We would start off with irons until they got the basics of aiming down. Moved to a red dot. Then finally scoped. I also bring samples of bolts and semis.
Here is what I did on the first outing with my 16 yo niece.
Took 3 rifles.
1. Scoped 10/22.
2. iron sighted Marlin 39.
3. peep sighted Win 52.
I let her shoot 10 rounds through each.
I then asked her which one she was most comfortable shooting.
These first rounds were fired offhand at about 30 feet.
Our goal is for her to go rabbit hunting.
She picked the M52 (heavy, vintage target rifle).
She then proceeded to shoot very well from a rest.
She is ready to go hunting.
I mounted a bipod to the M52 and she will shoot from sitting or kneeling
position only.
I got her excited because I bought a LH Savage Mark-II (she is shooting
left handed as she is left eye dominant). Pick up the rifle this saturday
and hope to have a vintage Redfield receiver sight that will work with a
Lyman 17 up front. I will transfer the bipod to her rifle. Next outing on
the 23rd or 24th, hope to have her rifle ready by then.
I hope this helps.
Jay
Took 3 rifles.
1. Scoped 10/22.
2. iron sighted Marlin 39.
3. peep sighted Win 52.
I let her shoot 10 rounds through each.
I then asked her which one she was most comfortable shooting.
These first rounds were fired offhand at about 30 feet.
Our goal is for her to go rabbit hunting.
She picked the M52 (heavy, vintage target rifle).
She then proceeded to shoot very well from a rest.
She is ready to go hunting.
I mounted a bipod to the M52 and she will shoot from sitting or kneeling
position only.
I got her excited because I bought a LH Savage Mark-II (she is shooting
left handed as she is left eye dominant). Pick up the rifle this saturday
and hope to have a vintage Redfield receiver sight that will work with a
Lyman 17 up front. I will transfer the bipod to her rifle. Next outing on
the 23rd or 24th, hope to have her rifle ready by then.
I hope this helps.
Jay
esmith
Member
This analogy doesn't make very much sense. It doesn't seem to adress this situation.
I learned a manual in an empty parking lot over a course of a week and attempting such about 4 times. It was actually the first car i ever used on the street. But this is aside the point.
Using iron sights won't disable the shooter of how to use the rifle safely, in fact, using irons is probably safer because you have more of a panoramic view than that of the small amount of space you see inside of a scope. Therfore you can see anything moving around you.
Using iron is the way to go, it will teach the young one that if he can master using something harder, that using a scope is really easy and will only be necissary if he is doing precision shooting. If he is good enough with iron sights, he won't need any optics for most intents and purposes.
Drakejake
Member
My experience is that using an optical scope tremendously complicates things. I like them because they work with my eyesight. About a week ago a friend and I shot with her 13 year old son. He was already trained in shooting, but I gave him some tips anyway. One of the firearms we shot was the WASR II in 5.45 x 39. I selected it for him because it is a light caliber, has a fine trigger, and no scope. We shot at short distance because that also speeds things up and simplifies. The boy loved shooting and wanted to shoot an extra mag with the WASR and an extra mag with the Ruger P-95. No problem.
Drakejake
Drakejake
Joe Demko
Member
An optical sight complicates things? Maybe if you want the kid to zero the rifle. Optical sights let the shooter's eye focus on things in a single plane. That is their great advantage no matter who is using them.
A typical dot sight allows the new shooter to have both eyes open and concentrate on steadying the dot on target.
Obviously new shooters can learn to shoot with iron sights. Most of you did. I did. That doesn't mean it is the best way of doing things.
In shooting sports, you see optical sights in every discipline where the rules permit them. The military uses them in combat. Hunters use them. About the only place where optical sights of some type aren't commonly used is self-defense handguns.
Optical sights aren't the future. They are the present. There is absolutely no reason to insist that a shooter must learn the use of iron sights first other than clinging to the tradition that evolved to do it that way when optical sights were much less common and much less durable.
Any bad habit that would send a shot awry from an optically sighted gun will also send the shot awry from an iron sighted gun. Stance, trigger control, breath control, and all the other aspects of marksmanship are the same whether or not you are using an optical sight. That is a fact. An optical sight doesn't make up for poor marksmanship habits and that is also a fact. It isn't cheating and it isn't "training wheels." It is an improved sighting device just as the various forms of iron sights were improvements over sightless weapons and also each other.
Learning to use iron sights is one more valuable skill for a marksman, but I've seen no convincing reason given in this thread as to why it must be the first thing learned. Heck, I've seen no reason given; just assertions that it must be that way.
A typical dot sight allows the new shooter to have both eyes open and concentrate on steadying the dot on target.
Obviously new shooters can learn to shoot with iron sights. Most of you did. I did. That doesn't mean it is the best way of doing things.
In shooting sports, you see optical sights in every discipline where the rules permit them. The military uses them in combat. Hunters use them. About the only place where optical sights of some type aren't commonly used is self-defense handguns.
Optical sights aren't the future. They are the present. There is absolutely no reason to insist that a shooter must learn the use of iron sights first other than clinging to the tradition that evolved to do it that way when optical sights were much less common and much less durable.
Any bad habit that would send a shot awry from an optically sighted gun will also send the shot awry from an iron sighted gun. Stance, trigger control, breath control, and all the other aspects of marksmanship are the same whether or not you are using an optical sight. That is a fact. An optical sight doesn't make up for poor marksmanship habits and that is also a fact. It isn't cheating and it isn't "training wheels." It is an improved sighting device just as the various forms of iron sights were improvements over sightless weapons and also each other.
Learning to use iron sights is one more valuable skill for a marksman, but I've seen no convincing reason given in this thread as to why it must be the first thing learned. Heck, I've seen no reason given; just assertions that it must be that way.
VARifleman
Member
I agree with this. With optics, you have a lot of movement that is not apparent with irons and that leads to bad habits like jerking the trigger, looking for the shot with the scope, not establishing natural point of aim. I say that it would be detrimental and have a lot more input than the kid should have to handle the first time out.
Ohen Cepel
Member
Irons.
JesseL
Member
I think we're talking about non-magnifying optics here (ie red dots). If we were talking about conventional scopes, I'd agree with you.
Harve Curry
Member
Iron sights and close enough targets that the kid will be succesful and have fun. Grow and get more high tech from there. Teach them that the iron sights are the old reliable when the batteries go dead, or the glass breaks.
Flyrodder
Member
Let him use the Red dot. It'll be fun for him. Most young people relate to video games. After he's used to shooting, you can show him the iron sights and have him shoot with them. Making it enjoyable is what it's all about. Flyrodder
i totally, emphatically agree with demko on this one.
maximize fun on the first trip.
the kid can learn to use irons dry firing in your basement whenever.
you still have to learn marksmanship to shoot a dot well. you just don't have to learn quite so much sight-alignment.
maximize fun on the first trip.
the kid can learn to use irons dry firing in your basement whenever.
you still have to learn marksmanship to shoot a dot well. you just don't have to learn quite so much sight-alignment.
chris in va
Member
Red dot, hands down. You want his first experience to be frustration-free and lots of fun yet educational. He's gonna have enough trouble just holding the gun up.
redneckdan
Member
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My first trip as a lad was with a semi .22 and clay pigeons. Definitely got me hooked. After a few trips I branched out to other rifles and sights. Important part is to get him hooked the first time. It is difficult to learn trigger control, breath control and sight alignment all at once. Most people have taught a handful of people to shoot, I teach 15-20 a week. Believe me, I know what I'm talking about. Some can pick up a firearm with iron sights and do great with iron sights their first time. Others have a harder time and like to use a scope till they figure things out.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
member
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Like someone said, take a rifle with each, and use the dot sight which he desires as a reward for learning the irons use: "OK, when you get 3 shots with X inches of the bullseye with this iron sighted rifle, then I'll let you shoot the dot sight gun." If he was 8, I would have said just use the optical sight. But at age 10 or 11, it's purt near time to learn irons, I think.
1911 guy
Member
Irons, I say.
I'd teach with irons first. Keep the targets at reasonable ranges and use as much reactive as possible. Clay pigeons are good, they break instead of just getting another hole in them like a piece of paper does. Unless you hit it with a .223fmj, then it just gets a hole in it.
When he has a solid handle on shooting form, go to the glass. New shooters who start on glass sometimes adjust their form to fit the glass instead of the other way around. When you do start him on glass, be sure to emphasize keeping both eyes open, just like iron sights.
I'd teach with irons first. Keep the targets at reasonable ranges and use as much reactive as possible. Clay pigeons are good, they break instead of just getting another hole in them like a piece of paper does. Unless you hit it with a .223fmj, then it just gets a hole in it.
When he has a solid handle on shooting form, go to the glass. New shooters who start on glass sometimes adjust their form to fit the glass instead of the other way around. When you do start him on glass, be sure to emphasize keeping both eyes open, just like iron sights.
cpttango30
Member
Why is it not fun with out some stupid batter operated gizmo on the firearms?
You got to walk before you can run. I say stick to the basics stick to the basics stick to the basics. Iron sights then at teh end of the day if he has done good let him shoot off a few with the red dot.
You got to walk before you can run. I say stick to the basics stick to the basics stick to the basics. Iron sights then at teh end of the day if he has done good let him shoot off a few with the red dot.
Matt-J2
Member
If he isn't having fun with one method, try the other. If he isn't having fun, then you've failed. Harsh maybe, but the point is to give him an enjoyable experience, and instill the desire(hunger) for more.
WNC Seabee
Member
thanks for all the input...here's my game plan.
Since I don't think that using a red dot precludes also learning proper breath/body control, position, trigger control, etc., I'm going to let him use the optic to get started.
We'll add in iron sights with a different rifle, or I'll take the optic off the Marlin and challenge him to do it (the kid loves a challenge) when I think it's right.
My focus is going to be 1) Safety and 2) Fun on this trip. You don't become a marksman in 1 range trip, so we'll build the skill set with each trip. My goal for trip #1 is to get him pumped up and confident.
Just because I had to learn with iron sights and a flintlock, and wasn't allowed one of those "gimicky" new fangled center-fire things, doesn't mean I need to do it that way with my kid.
Since I don't think that using a red dot precludes also learning proper breath/body control, position, trigger control, etc., I'm going to let him use the optic to get started.
We'll add in iron sights with a different rifle, or I'll take the optic off the Marlin and challenge him to do it (the kid loves a challenge) when I think it's right.
My focus is going to be 1) Safety and 2) Fun on this trip. You don't become a marksman in 1 range trip, so we'll build the skill set with each trip. My goal for trip #1 is to get him pumped up and confident.
Just because I had to learn with iron sights and a flintlock, and wasn't allowed one of those "gimicky" new fangled center-fire things, doesn't mean I need to do it that way with my kid.
WNC Seabee
Member
Range Report
So today was the day. Got to the range about 10am and set up some clay pigeons, soda bottles and a couple paper targets.
Started out with the iron sights (his choice!) and he did great. Broke some pigeons at about 25yds and was mostly in the 8 ring on a paper target.
I started him out loading 1 round at a time and taking a while between shots to reinforce safety stuff (is your safety on? are you sure it's not loaded?) and proper range manners. Our homework really paid off! NO safety issues at all.
After a bit we loaded up 10 rounds and let her rip. 8 pigeons down!
Switched to the optic for a bit, no real excitement there, he ended up liking the irons better; said he could see better.
Moved out to 50 yds and he was still hitting 8-10 rings.
Probably 100 rounds downrange and we had a ball! I never got behind the sights; nothing I hated worse as a kid than watching while someone showed me what to do. Better to coach with the kid doing the actually shooting.
In retrospect I was more worried about this trip than I needed to be. Also, the stuff we worked on at home (dry firing, safety, etc.) really paid off.
So today was the day. Got to the range about 10am and set up some clay pigeons, soda bottles and a couple paper targets.
Started out with the iron sights (his choice!) and he did great. Broke some pigeons at about 25yds and was mostly in the 8 ring on a paper target.
I started him out loading 1 round at a time and taking a while between shots to reinforce safety stuff (is your safety on? are you sure it's not loaded?) and proper range manners. Our homework really paid off! NO safety issues at all.
After a bit we loaded up 10 rounds and let her rip. 8 pigeons down!
Switched to the optic for a bit, no real excitement there, he ended up liking the irons better; said he could see better.
Moved out to 50 yds and he was still hitting 8-10 rings.
Probably 100 rounds downrange and we had a ball! I never got behind the sights; nothing I hated worse as a kid than watching while someone showed me what to do. Better to coach with the kid doing the actually shooting.
In retrospect I was more worried about this trip than I needed to be. Also, the stuff we worked on at home (dry firing, safety, etc.) really paid off.
twofourthree73
Member
Very awesome. You got another young person interested in firearms and learning the responsibility that goes with them.
Very cool! Congrats, Dad! But, only 100 rounds? Me and the grandson will shoot our .22's until we're ready to puke from the smell of gunsmoke.
If you ever get the chance to let him shoot anything full-auto, be sure and go for it! Cody's 11. Poor kid's right-handed but left-eye dominant, don't know how to fix that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL0yLT9XHCU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2xzaUXtL2c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXhW0L8mluM
If you ever get the chance to let him shoot anything full-auto, be sure and go for it! Cody's 11. Poor kid's right-handed but left-eye dominant, don't know how to fix that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL0yLT9XHCU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2xzaUXtL2c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXhW0L8mluM
Floppy_D
Member In Memoriam
Sounds like you done good! The kiddo sees the use in different sighting methods, and knows how to shoot safely. You have added to his toolkit.
Thernlund
Member
Good job! That story brings a smile to my face!
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