12 ga "Buck and Ball"

[blarby]

So, I've reached a weird conundrum point, the answer to which I can't sift from my notes in pursuit of a preferred buck and ball combo.

Some background first, that it may be pertinent to the discussion at hand :

My latest experiments involve a 7/8th oz slug, on top of- or occasionally underneath, 3 30 cal round balls. Thats why I call it experimentation.

With the slug on top, the "accuracy" of all of the projectiles is superb.
I get about a 2" grouping at most at ten yards, a 4" grouping at 25, and it kinda drifts from there. The big hunk is more or less centered. at the ten yard mark, usually 2 of the three 30 cal balls follow the slug through a ragged hole. I can, with satisfactory regularity, punch out quarter sized sticky targets on just about anything I put them on at "encounter distances" where I would grab a shotgun over a rifle.

With the slug on the bottom, the pattern widens considerably faster- but the big hunk in the middle always goes where it should.


And thats the rub- as it were.

I've kinda lost the point in the process. Other than shooting and loading for their own sake : what the heck is the purpose ? Or is that the purpose. If that is the purpose, I need to do this when its warmer. Much warmer, for better enjoyment.

If I wanted a larger grouping of pellets to saturate a target area, I have a 12 ball 30 cal combo that accomplishes this considerably better than factory buckshot, at much more prescribed and regular delineations.

If I wanted a solid, concentrated shot, I could use a slug to equal effect.

I can't really envision many scenarios where the slug wouldn't have hit, that the smaller projectiles would have. I'm not hunting squirrel- ya dig ? I certainly wouldn't be doing it with these, anyway. And besides, the rats out here just aren't that big or plentiful yet.

I also can't envison one where having one big hunk and three or more small ones also impact the target- outside of ridding the world of cracked cinderblocks otherwise not better used- at a faster rate- would be more beneficial.

If the buck and ball concept is centered around two-legged vermin... both of these statements apply equally.


Maybe someone else out there remembers what these are for ?

I sure don't.

Its still fun, either way.

 

[Cosmoline]

B&B was developed for muskets back at least as far as the mid 18th century. The load was always a roundball with a few, usually three, buckshot on top. Typically loaded in a paper cartridge and held together by the paper. The roundball would tend to fly more-or-less normally, while the buckshot spread out. It effectively quadrupled your firepower, and turned a 50 or 75 yard musket into a 150 yard weapon. Advancing ranks would be peppered with both shot and ball. Long range buckshot probably wouldn't kill, but it would cause soldiers to stumble and break ranks. And by the time they got into 75 yards they force of impact would be doubled and increase from there. It was pretty darned effective.

The load continued to be used through the Civil War. I recently picked up an 1842 Springfield replica which I'm going to use for B&B experiments. Those sturdy muskets were probably the most famous of all B&B guns, and held their own against rifle muskets and snipers in close combat at numerous battles through Gettysburg at least.

I don't think the load would be illegal for warfare under Hague, though some seem to believe it is. It was rendered moot by the dominance of rifled barrels, which make B&B much trickier.

In my own experiments I've found best results keeping the shot on top of the ball otherwise they get squished. The goal is a good spread, not a tight grouping. For ML'ers I get best results stacking the load like a column of shot. I think the load is best suited for black powder or shotgun-level smokeless loads.

 

[blarby]

Ok, so whats a good spread, at what distance ?

Do you want in excess of a man sized target at..... 25 yards ?

 

[Cosmoline]

Ideally you want the shot to be hitting the guy next to the guy you're aiming at but not much further or you start losing the load to ground and sky. So at 25 it should be on the same target. By 100 it should be spread out to the next door neighbors and targets behind and around. Kind of hard to test that without making the guy sighting his rifle next to you pretty angry though ;-) Some TV shows have recreated the load to stunning effect, with torso targets getting absolutely peppered from a volley of a dozen muskets almost like grape.

The load has little or no practical value in this day and age, but is fun to play around with.

 

[blarby]

Hmm

So, I'm guessing that its utility might be better with multiple people firing.

One person/ one round doesnt seem to measure up to what is being sought here.

 

[Cosmoline]

No, but it is fun if you have a chance to nail a row of milk jugs against a berm.

A double ball load might be more what you're after. That would be two roundball stacked in a column instead of shot or a slug. I've done experiments with that and end up with about 6" between them at 25 yards. That could double a shotgun's firepower at close range. There are some ammo companies making them as a sort of novelty. With a ML you have to be darned sure you seat that second ball hard down on the first or you can end up with an explosion. Again I've found it best to load them unpatched just loose in the bore between wads of tow, like a column of shot. That way you don't have that air pocket bounching the ball up and bulging your barrel (or worse).

 

[HighExpert]

You don't have to load it. You can buy factory at Sportsmansguide. They refer to it as anti-personel ammo.

 

[blarby]

Dont have to load it ?

*looks at forum name*

Pfft.

 

[hueyville]

Called duplex rounds currently. Remington and Blammo both make nice versions. A mix of #4 buck and BB's. Very effective at short range. I believe Federal is making a round with a 12 gauge slug and 3 rounds of buckshot. Another fine concept. Then you have the Blammo holo rounds, two .50 caliber round balls attached with a piece of piano wire. Would not like to get hit by that. They also have the fleshette rounds full of the little steel darts like some of the close range antipersonell rounds for m79 blooper tube. The fleshetett rounds send about 50 needles right through kevlar body armor. For entertainment.they have the dragons breath rounds that send a .fifty foot fireball down range. Parent company is either in Senneca or Westminster sc. They make all types of shotgun ammo that really turns it.into a defensive/offensive weapon.

 

[saltydog452]

Is barrel constriction a player?

sd.

 

[Cosmoline]

They make all types of shotgun ammo that really turns it.into a defensive/offensive weapon.

Those are really novelty rounds for fun. A regular Foster slug is all the hurt needed and adding a bunch of buckshot over one again kind of misses the whole point of buck and ball which was to increase downrange firepower when firing from a massed line of troops. It doesn't do anything to short range performance other than get in the slug's way.

The less said about the potential for using a flechette or "dragon's breath" for anything other than fun at the range the better. And I wouldn't try them at a staffed range for that matter. They also have a little "chain" round with two roundballs stuck together with wire. It's a mini-version of the real chain cannon rounds used to take out personnel and most of all ship rigging back in the 18th century. Out of a little shotgun it's just silly.

 

[Cosmoline]

FYI this is interesting:

http://apva.org/rediscovery/page.php?page_id=201

Appears to show a buck-and-ball load in bone found at Jamestown.

 

[blarby]

Looks almost like my 430 ball and 7/8th oz of #7 shot