120 years of Browning designs

[mstreddy]

Agent, I quoted the "military scrapped as far back as 1950 or there about." Yes, they may have been looking for a replacement from the 1950s. And they have been looking for a replacement for the Beretta M9 pretty much since it's inception as well.
Regardless -- the M1911 served as the primary sidearm until the 1980s, not the 1950s. And as I mentioned variants of them are still in use today.

And to clear the air here -- I like my Glocks, I like my 1911s, I like my revolvers.
However, I really don't care what one person prefers or likes as one design over other designs. It comes down to personal preference, experience and exposure.
But, what I think some are taking you to task on here is your perceived lack of knowledge on the designs and the designers.
And the US military decision to adopt the Beretta M9 wasn't about the tilting or Non-tilting barrel.

 

[agent109]

Let's just leave it there before it only gets worse. My knowledge base is an unknown factor to you and needs not be assailed. Peace...enjoy your Brownings!

 

[mavracer]

You have a ways to go lol. JMB was a busy man.

 

[bikerdoc]

Trolling will stop now, or someone will get a week off. Stay on topic.

 

[1911Tuner]

I don't think the tilting barrel is unique to Browning albeit I could be wrong.

It is and you are. That's why it's called the Colt-Browning design

Your Glock has John Browning's fingerprints all over it, as well as a few others. Pretty much all Gaston did was to incorporate their ideas into one pistol.

Let's count the ways.

Tilt barrel/front slide dismount...Browning.

Upper barrel lug(s) to slide lug locking system...Browning.

Striker fired...Borchardt

Short recoil operation...Borchardt.

Double stack magazine with single feed position...Saive.

Cross member to lift and drop the barrel into and out of locked position...Saive.

Polymer injection molded frame...Heckler & Koch. Unsure of the designer's name.

Frame mounted button to release magazine...Georg Luger.

The one thing that he did neglect to do was add a manual safety, thus giving rise to the phenomenon known as "Glock Leg" that most often happens during reholstering the piece...the very reason that the 1911's manual safety was added on request of the US Cavalry...because even in those unenlightened days, the thinking heads realized that a man under stress might forget to get his finger off the trigger before jamming it back into a holster.

Agent109 writes: ... 1911 style handgun that the military scrapped as far back as 1950 or there about.

The Marines are putting it to good use in faraway places as we speak.

Then we have our military dumping the 1911 in favor of the Beretta non tilting barrel feed style 92FS

The US military adopted the Beretta mostly because NATO demanded commonality of ammunition...and Italy was part of NATO. I imagine there was some kickbackin' and politickin' involved.

And the Beretta's locking system was little more than a straight copy of the Walther P38...and there have been some problems with that one, too.

I do believe the Luger knee action auto loader predates the 1911 for a lock breech pistol.

The Luger IS a locked breech, short recoil operated pistol.

Don't get me wrong I have a matched pair, consecutive serial numbered 1911 pistols by United Switch and Signal unfired,

I think that Union...Switch and Signal...is what you're lookin' for here.

oops...

 

[WestKentucky]

Your feat seems more reasonable than my similar goal. You want all browning designs...I want all long recoil designs. Rem 11 and 11-48 are easy enough as are savage and browning copies of brownings original design which was the rem 11...but get into long recoil pistols and you get some doosies. At least there aren't many unicorns that I have to find and hopefully I have another 50 years or more to find them. That would put me at 80...beyond 80 I doubt I have disposable money to spend on safe queens.

 

[mstreddy]

Sounds good --
BACK ON TOPIC
OP --
I love your collection. A Colt 1903 and the FN 1910 pistols are on my list. I've never been a fan of the High Powers though, but they are beautiful guns.

I'll have to take some pics of my JMB designs now.
Winchester Model 94, Rossi Model 92, FN Auto 5, M1911 and I'll have to see what else fits.

 

[mstreddy]

OK, I can add an 11-48 to the mix??? Got it.

 

[mavracer]

I think the fact that so many of his designs are still argued about being the best of their ilk today is remarkable.
1885 High Wall/low wall, 1886,1890,1892,1894,1895,1897 and M12 Winchesters.
Auto 5, 22 auto rifle, Ithaca 37 , and then all the machine guns.

Heck Winchester bought something like 40 of his designs and sat on them never to build, just to keep the competition from having them

 

[mstreddy]

Mavracer,
It is amazing that many of his designs are either still produced in some form or another or they are, more importantly, still in service. The Ma-Deuce comes to mind. The lever action models that he tweaked, perfected and sold off, the Auto-5, of course 1911s, High Powers, and what am I missing?

 

[Nom de Forum]

I think the fact that so many of his designs are still argued about being the best of their ilk today is remarkable.
1885 High Wall/low wall, 1886,1890,1892,1894,1895,1897 and M12 Winchesters.
Auto 5, 22 auto rifle, Ithaca 37 , and then all the machine guns.

Heck Winchester bought something like 40 of his designs and sat on them never to build, just to keep the competition from having them

Browning is without a doubt the greatest, most successful, and most influential firearms designer in history. It truly amazes me that anyone claiming more than a passing knowledge of firearm design could sincerely argue otherwise. He is the giant with the most other designers standing on the shoulders of. Sometimes the posts to these THR threads make me think I have entered the Twilight Zone!

OneSevenDuece I would like to suggest you add an Auto 5 and a Remington Model 8 to add semiautomatic long arms for balance.

 

[mavracer]

Remington Model 8

One of the few turds he designed, respectively anyway lol

 

[mavracer]

what am I missing?

How about one of the sweetest 22 pistols ever the Colt Woodsman

One thing about a collection of JMB designs, you'd not be lacking for any purpose. From self defense to any game a guy would want to hunt.

 

[WestKentucky]

Rem 8 isn't a turd...well...it's not pretty but it's not a turd.

And I would go rem 11 over A5 for a JMB collection. They were made while he was still alive and kicking. There are plenty variations of the rem 11 that can be collected as well, for a small price as well.

 

[Nom de Forum]

One of the few turds he designed, respectively anyway lol

WestKentucky- Rem 8 isn't a turd...well...it's not pretty but it's not a turd.

And I would go rem 11 over A5 for a JMB collection. They were made while he was still alive and kicking. There are plenty variations of the rem 11 that can be collected as well, for a small price as well.

No offense taken mavracer. Guys you described precisely why he should pick-up a Rem 8 because you referred to it as a "turd" and "not pretty", that makes it rare as few other of his designs could be credibly referred to as such!

WestKentucky I agree with you, the Rem 11 would be a better choice.

 

[mstreddy]

mavracer,

How about one of the sweetest 22 pistols ever the Colt Woodsman

Well, chalk that up to things I've learned today...
I did not know that. Thanks!

I think I'm going to go my buddy's shop (SOT type) and do the photo there. He has the MGs covered, including the M-2. That should be an interesting layout.

WestKY the Auto-5s were made while he was alive.
From Wiki page

It was manufactured by FN (a company that had already produced Browning-designed pistols) starting in 1902. Browning would later license the design to Remington, who produced it as their Model 11 (1905–1948).

And, I happen to have one. I have an 11-48 as well, but no Model 11.

 

[rcmodel]

Don't forget the SA-22 autoloading .22 rifle either.

It's been in continuous production for 100 years now.
(Also produced as the Remington Model 24 and Model 241)

rc

 

[mstreddy]

Mavraver,

How about one of the sweetest 22 pistols ever the Colt Woodsman

You know, I don't know if I just didn't know that or I just forgot it. But a Woodsman would be awesome. I think I've only handled 2 or 3 of them, but I've never shot one.

West Kentucky,
The Auto-5s were made while JMB was alive. And I do happen to have one. I don't own a Remington model 11, but I own it's offspring, an 11-48.

For giggles, I think that when I craft my photo I'll go over to my buddy's shop. He's an SOT guy and has a M1919 and a MaDeuce! That would be a great juxtaposition, don't you think?

OK, got some sort of double post going... I thought I had lost the previous one.

 

[mstreddy]

And of course, now RC has to bring up the SA-22. That's another one that I would like to get.

 

[Nom de Forum]

I still agree with WestKentucky that OneSevenDuece should get a Rem 11 so he would have a set of Remington semiautos designed by JMB.

 

[rcmodel]

Oh, and you need a Baby Browning too!

rc

 

[Jim K]

"Frame mounted button to release magazine...Georg Luger."

As long as everyone is playing picky, picky, that was a Borchardt design, as was the detachable box magazine, which was borrowed from Diss. Nor was the 1911 the first locked breech pistol; it wasn't even Browning's first, as Colt had sold thousands of his dual link pistols by 1911.

One thing almost everyone misses is that much of Browning's reputation stems from the determination of the Colt, Winchester and FN patent attorneys to patent everything they could think of in the Browning designs. Even such a seemingly simple thing as screws to hold on a pistol grip were patented, so competitors had to come up with some complex and not very good alternatives. That kind of thing forced the competition into inferior designs (e.g., Winchester M1911 shotgun) that never achieved much success.

Jim

 

[Nom de Forum]

"Frame mounted button to release magazine...Georg Luger."

As long as everyone is playing picky, picky, that was a Borchardt design, as was the detachable box magazine, which was borrowed from Diss. Nor was the 1911 the first locked breech pistol; it wasn't even Browning's first, as Colt had sold thousands of his dual link pistols by 1911.

One thing almost everyone misses is that much of Browning's reputation stems from the determination of the Colt, Winchester and FN patent attorneys to patent everything they could think of in the Browning designs. Even such a seemingly simple thing as screws to hold on a pistol grip were patented, so competitors had to come up with some complex and not very good alternatives. That kind of thing forced the competition into inferior designs (e.g., Winchester M1911 shotgun) that never achieved much success.

Jim

Truer words regarding patent protection strategy have never be written. At the same time the Big 3 were at it the same strategy would start being used shortly after with the Wright Brothers attempting to monopolize aircraft technology. Fortunately aircraft technological development was less hindered than firearms development but even that was not hindered much.

 

[mavracer]

Nor was the 1911 the first locked breech pistol; it wasn't even Browning's first, as Colt had sold thousands of his dual link pistols by 1911

The 1911 is the first to use the tilting barrel that is everywhere today.
And mstreddy just cause I delight in being a bad influence I actually mentioned the 22 SA rifle in post 34. I've had a similar quest for getting a bunch of JMB designs I do have all the ones I said in post 34 except the 86 is represented by a m71, I also have a few pistols BHP, 1911, 1903 pocket, 1908 vest pocket and a Huntsman.
As to the model 8 turd comment I said respectively as in it's not timeless like most of his other designs, don't hold your breath nobody's gonna bring out a clone lol

 

[1911Tuner]

As long as everyone is playing picky, picky, that was a Borchardt design, as was the detachable box magazine, which was borrowed from Diss.

Yeh...I forgot about the Borchardt and to list the detachable magazine. Haste will be my undoing. Watch and see.

The point was that the "Glock Innovation" that everybody screams about was little more than a compilation of somebody else's ideas.

But, everybody steals licks from those who came before him. If we look at the Sharps falling block, we can close our eyes and see how it evolved into the Model 94.