125gr XTP, BE-86 in 357 Magnum

[Jonesy814]

According to Alliants data, a 38 Special Plus P maximum charge of BE-86 is 6.1 grains for a 125gr JHP, at 1065fps
For 357 magnum, same bullet, they list a maximum charge of 9.1 grains of BE-86 with velocity of 1263fps. The, reduced by 10% starting load would be 8.2 grains
Today I loaded some 357 brass with 6.8gr of BE-86 and a 125 grain XTP earlier. That is about 11.5% over the 38 plus P load.
Does anyone have any idea of how this will compare to the 38 plus P load? I'm looking for something at or slightly above that level for use in a 357 J frame.

 

[fxvr5]

Why don't you load the +P load, too and find out for yourself?

 

[westernrover]

I used to carry j-frames with 357 loaded with BE-86. I didn't carry XTP, but used them for testing and load development because they were more affordable -- especially since I got a lot of them in pulled condition on sale. I tested more with 158 grain XTP, but I did also use 125 grain XTP. BE-86 is one of the powders that develops more velocity in the short j-frame barrels while being very manageable/shootable -- versus something like H110 that is quite a handful in a j-frame. Other powders that provide good ballistics similar to BE-86 are Power Pistol and Longshot. Power Pistol lacks the flash suppressant. Blue Dot is another one in this range. It burns dirtier. Besides that, it's also harder to meter by volume due to the large flakes. So BE-86 is one of the very best powders for this purpose.

To get the 125 grain XTP to perform well, it needs to be going about 1350 fps. If it is going as slow as 1100 fps it will barely expand and the result will be over-penetration. If it is only going 800 fps (typical of 38 Special in a snubnose) it will not expand at all and it will over-penetrate. A j-frame is just not going to drive this bullet to 1350 fps with any powder. Bear in mind, all the BE-86 data from Alliant is for a 6-inch barrel.

To get good performance from a j-frame, a 125-grain bullet is needed that will expand and penetrate at a lower velocity. Work up to a max-load of BE-86 with your j-frame and see what velocity you get with the 125 grain XTP. Then find a bullet that will perform at or below that velocity.

In my experience, the short barrels work best with heavier bullets. The heavier bullets need less velocity to achieve the critical penetration criteria. They can be made to expand at lower velocities and will still have enough momentum to carry the expanded bullet through to sufficient depth. I still don't recommend the heavier XTP because it expands so little and penetrates excessively. But if you can work up to a max load of BE-86 with a 135, 140, or 158 grain bullet, then see if you can find a bullet of the same weight that will perform at that velocity.

 

[lordpaxman]

I try to keep it simple. If I want 38+ performance, I load .38’s. I don’t get the mentality of downloading a spacious .357 case to achieve .38 performance, especially if you want a consistency. Revolver SDs, in my tests, are usually larger than semi’s, and powder position in a larger case is going to increase that farther.
As to the OP question, I would think a chrono would be required to answer that.

 

[BBarn]

I try to keep it simple. If I want 38+ performance, I load .38’s. I don’t get the mentality of downloading a spacious .357 case to achieve .38 performance, especially if you want a consistency. Revolver SDs, in my tests, are usually larger than semi’s, and powder position in a larger case is going to increase that farther.
As to the OP question, I would think a chrono would be required to answer that.

That may be true for most 357s. But other 357s may shoot better with the longer 357 brass, which lessons the bullet jump from case to rifling.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

That may be true for most 357s. But other 357s may shoot better with the longer 357 brass, which lessons the bullet jump from case to rifling.

In a 2 or 3” J-Frame? The range in a legal self defense scenario is under 25ft. Exactly what difference does the “bullet jump” make that’s worth WAG’ing load data? Wouldn’t the inconsistencies of the longer case be as-or-more nearly detrimental than “bullet jump”? We’re not discussing a match rifle, it’s a snubby pocket revolver. Let’s try to keep some perspective.
For the OP, it sounds like you’re looking for some statistical modeling numbers, correct? Predictive analytics? There’s free software for that called Gordon’s Reloading Tool and there’s pay software, too like Quickloads. I suggest IM’ing one of the regular contributors who use one of those software tools.

 

[AJC1]

I think your bullet selection is hampering your efforts. Try and locate one of the new short barrel bullets like the 135 Speer. They are designed to function in the speed range generated by short barrel Cary guns.

 

[BBarn]

In a 2 or 3” J-Frame? The range in a legal self defense scenario is under 25ft. Exactly what difference does the “bullet jump” make that’s worth WAG’ing load data? Wouldn’t the inconsistencies of the longer case be as-or-more nearly detrimental than “bullet jump”? We’re not discussing a match rifle, it’s a snubby pocket revolver. Let’s try to keep some perspective.
For the OP, it sounds like you’re looking for some statistical modeling numbers, correct? Predictive analytics? There’s free software for that called Gordon’s Reloading Tool and there’s pay software, too like Quickloads. I suggest IM’ing one of the regular contributors who use one of those software tools.

I was speaking to the generalized response I quoted regarding a choice of 38 Special cases versus 357 Mag cases for use in 357 guns. I agree that for SD scenarios bullet jump doesn't much matter. And neither do minor differences in velocity (standard deviation).

But for use in a 357 chambered revolver, I would certainly recommend use of 357 Mag cases over 38 special cases when the desired load is above 38 +P pressure levels. In instances (like the OP) where same powder loads are provided for 38 Special, 38 +P, and 357 Mag, it isn't really WAG'ing it to reduce the charge a little below the 357 minimum in 357 cases. For in such instances, the case fill will typically be greater than that of a starting charge in 38 Special. And the velocity (and pressure) for such a load will be higher than the 38 Special max load and lower than the 357 Mag start load.

 

[Jonesy814]

I have factory ammo to carry. I don't care what it takes to expand an XTP. I am not trying to copy a plus p 38 load in a magnum case. I simply wondered if anyone had a guess or data to suggest if this will be roughly equivalent to the 38 Plus P load or if it will have a bit more power. The paper I will shoot does not care. I was aiming for something in the plus P plus range but if it's not, that's fine.
I used 357 brass so the rounds would not chamber in a 38 special.
It's for a 3 inch model 60 Pro

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I have factory ammo to carry. I don't care what it takes to expand an XTP. I am not trying to copy a plus p 38 load in a magnum case. I simply wondered if anyone had a guess or data to suggest if this will be roughly equivalent to the 38 Plus P load or if it will have a bit more power. The paper I will shoot does not care. I was aiming for something in the plus P plus range but if it's not, that's fine.
I used 357 brass so the rounds would not chamber in a 38 special.
It's for a 3 inch model 60 Pro

That’s why I suggested a predictive modeling software tool like Gordon’s Reloading Tool or Quickloads.

 

[AJC1]

I have factory ammo to carry. I don't care what it takes to expand an XTP. I am not trying to copy a plus p 38 load in a magnum case. I simply wondered if anyone had a guess or data to suggest if this will be roughly equivalent to the 38 Plus P load or if it will have a bit more power. The paper I will shoot does not care. I was aiming for something in the plus P plus range but if it's not, that's fine.
I used 357 brass so the rounds would not chamber in a 38 special.
It's for a 3 inch model 60 Pro

I do exactly the opposite. I only own 357s but bullets cannot be loaded to the crimp grove unless I use 38 cases. 20kpis loads will be predicted in software or in old 38-44 loads