12GA reloading question about hulls

[RealGun]

Lead shot provides the weight needed to build adequate pressure. Hull quality and crimp still have a large effect on pressure and patterns.

But by what mechanism? This is a raw, dogmatic statement that one would have to accept on faith. Are you referring to petals breaking away upon firing, possibly skewing the pattern from way back in the barrel? How likely is that? Do you think the shot pack breaks up unevenly before exiting the barrel. I would expect the wad to take care of all that. I don't know but am skeptical about being too concerned about loading fired hulls and shooting imperfect crimps.

 

[tmd16556]

I’d guess a bad crimp can make a little impact on the margins of a pattern, but it probably doesn’t matter unless you’re shooting competitive trap or maybe turkey loads. For regular targets and games or doves, I’ve never felt a bad crimp made much difference. Misses are usually on me misleading or misjudging distance, not the pattern. The only major concern is shot leakage. That ranges from annoying (shot leaking in your pocket) to dangerous - too much shot leaks and you can get a squib from too little back pressure from the shot.

 

[wild03]

There are absolutely parallels to be drawn across shotgun loads. For example, you can shoot most any combination of wad, hull, primer, with 1 to 1 1/8 oz lead payload over 17.5 gr of Red Dot. You'll find safe loads listed across most all component varieties, just load what fits your hulls. They will shoot mild and due to the nature of Red Dot, will generally yield acceptable ballistics even if the crimp isn't perfect.

I do a fair amount of similar experimentation to use up random or obsolete stuff given to me or obtained as part of auction lots. One of my favorite was a .68 caliber round ball loaded in a WAA12R style wad with a filler and overshot over a modest charge of Red Dot. Turned my 12 GA into a 68 caliber musket. Made for lots of fun plinking in the back yard on a "redcoat" target cut out of scrap OSB.

This would be my goal. I also want to try roll crimping, either find a cheap tool for the drill press or make one on the lathe if I find good instructions.
Can the cheap hulls from original post be roll crimped?

 

[Random 8]

Roll crimping is a specialty process that I haven't had much use for. I believe once shells have been fold crimped, they are unsuitable for roll crimping unless you cut off the crimped portion to make shorties.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

I don't know but am skeptical about being too concerned about loading fired hulls and shooting imperfect crimps.

I am not referring to fired hulls (that is all I ever use) or even imperfect crimps. Worn out and cheap hulls crimp poorly and cause inconsistent pressures (and velocities) that affect patterns. How much it matters is for anyone to decide themselves.
I have pattern tested in the past, rarely do anymore. It is the most boring and monotonous of all gun related endeavors.

 

[wild03]

Roll crimping is a specialty process that I haven't had much use for. I believe once shells have been fold crimped, they are unsuitable for roll crimping unless you cut off the crimped portion to make shorties.

There's a youtuber "Babba Rountree Outdoors", he roll crimps, cuts hulls several times if split from 3" to shorties, and uses a metal cone called spin doctor to recondition the hulls. the spin doctor and roll crimper drill press attachments seem doable on a lathe.

 

[wild03]

Those wads are made for a straight wall hull. The Winchester hull you have is tapered, so they are - at best - a poor combination.

Good luck, and good shooting!

It looks like the hulls are straight wall, these have a clear insert at the bottom. so two separate parts the tube and the clear plug pressing the tube to the steel base. (not even brass)

 

[entropy]

This would be my goal. I also want to try roll crimping, either find a cheap tool for the drill press or make one on the lathe if I find good instructions.
Can the cheap hulls from original post be roll crimped?

For loads you won't be recovering the hulls from, they will work, but even then you are better off using unskived hulls for roll crimps, for consistency.

 

[RealGun]

I am not referring to fired hulls (that is all I ever use) or even imperfect crimps. Worn out and cheap hulls crimp poorly and cause inconsistent pressures (and velocities) that affect patterns. How much it matters is for anyone to decide themselves.
I have pattern tested in the past, rarely do anymore. It is the most boring and monotonous of all gun related endeavors.

I would expect the wad to control pressure consistency more than the crimp, which I think of as just holding in the shot.

 

[wild03]

Finally got around designing and printing my own shell trimmer and roll crimper.

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5228568

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5205976

the roll crimper is a proof of concept. I will make it out of aluminum on the lathe.

 

[Howa 9700]

New to reloading and i'm just collecting material and information, so i have some cheap winchester hulls from those game loads bulk boxes from walmart. 2 3/4 1oz #8

i also have claybuster cb2100-12 wads.

looking at the hulls they have an insert inside that keep the wad from reaching the back of the hull. insert extends about 1/2" from the bottom

can these be reloaded? is the entire 1/2 inch space expected to be taken up by the powder so the wad will never hit the insert once powder is added? or is it ok for the wad to stop at the insert and for the powder if it doesn't reach the insert to have that air gap.

Just trying to understand the process and info is appreciated, Thank you.

Was going over this thread again and realized OP's post got sidetracked into talk of Win AA's, etc. What OP describes is what my old Lyman manual would call a "Poly formed" straight wall case vs the "compression formed" Win AA which is tapered. Due to the large base area, there is less internal volume in the poly formed hull (vs. compression formed AA hulls), so the wad used is not as tall. The compression zone of these wads is short. In the old load data, it would be the difference between a Win AA White (WAA12) and Win AA Red (WAA12R). The poly formed hulls would use the shorter WAA12R, or now, one of the Claybuster or DownRange clones. Plastic in these hulls is thin and with 6 point crimp.......some malfunction and don't look so hot, but get the wad right so you get the crimp right and they will go BANG. One or two loads vs. 10 or more for AA's......but they are what they are.

 

[MEHavey]

Hodgdon shows the WAA12 (white) being used in both the poly and the compression-formed AA.
https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center?rdc=true&type=55

 

[wild03]

Was going over this thread again and realized OP's post got sidetracked into talk of Win AA's, etc. What OP describes is what my old Lyman manual would call a "Poly formed" straight wall case vs the "compression formed" Win AA which is tapered. Due to the large base area, there is less internal volume in the poly formed hull (vs. compression formed AA hulls), so the wad used is not as tall. The compression zone of these wads is short. In the old load data, it would be the difference between a Win AA White (WAA12) and Win AA Red (WAA12R). The poly formed hulls would use the shorter WAA12R, or now, one of the Claybuster or DownRange clones. Plastic in these hulls is thin and with 6 point crimp.......some malfunction and don't look so hot, but get the wad right so you get the crimp right and they will go BANG. One or two loads vs. 10 or more for AA's......but they are what they are.

I bought the Lyman shotshell handbook 5th edition and you are correct, the manual calls these "Winchester Polyformed with Plastic Basewad" there is a note that says that loading data for the Winchester HS and Compression formed will interchange.
Slug data call for combinations of cards fiber and felt wads, and one with WAA12 with petals removed. Buckshot uses the WAA12R wad, leadshot uses WAA12L, 12SO, and a few others.
So the wads I have are 12SO equivalent, so that's good. I will experiment with the homemade wads for slugs, I will make a punch on the lathe when i get a chance, I have the idea of using a bolt socket of appropriate size and sharpening the end or maybe a pipe

Thanks

 

[Seedy Character]

I NEVER reload those cheap hulls with them clear base wad.

I have seen those base wad come loose and lodge in the barrel, when reloaded.

To many good hulls easy to obtain to be chancing tragedy on cheap hulls.

 

[kalielkslayer]

Ditto on the cheap win hulls not crimping well. They are usually fine, but about 1/15 will just set up 'weird." With a good load fit the weird ones will still fire fine.

I have a disease where it causes me physical pain to throw anything away without utilizing some utility from it. These Win hulls are often mixed in with the bags of range hulls I get for free from my local trap club. I generally use them for a single firing in doubles, skeet, or sporting clays where I do not wish to pick up empties. They are more of a straight wall design than the Win AA hulls. A bit of a hybrid. I've found any load designed for the AA hull to work well in them.

I haven’t tried it with “cheap Winchester hulls” but an overshot card makes the crimp basically irrelevant.

I started using an overshot card and immediately wondered why I hadn’t figured that out sooner!

 

[kalielkslayer]

I’d guess a bad crimp can make a little impact on the margins of a pattern, but it probably doesn’t matter unless you’re shooting competitive trap or maybe turkey loads. For regular targets and games or doves, I’ve never felt a bad crimp made much difference. Misses are usually on me misleading or misjudging distance, not the pattern. The only major concern is shot leakage. That ranges from annoying (shot leaking in your pocket) to dangerous - too much shot leaks and you can get a squib from too little back pressure from the shot.

Overshot card!

 

[wild03]

I NEVER reload those cheap hulls with them clear base wad.

I have seen those base wad come loose and lodge in the barrel, when reloaded.

To many good hulls easy to obtain to be chancing tragedy on cheap hulls.

Thanks for the heads up. will make sure to inspect the spent shells. FYI this is more of an exercise in resourcefulness, will not be my go to hulls if possible. but in a pinch i would like to see what I can do. Would like to also reduce powder charges and cut hulls shorter with each reload.
I'm thinking of getting the walmart single shot shotgun as a test platform, it used to be $100, maybe $150 now? has anyone seen it lately? none of the walmarts nearby sell firearms, I would have to drive to the edge of the city. I'm hoping they still sell it.

 

[Seedy Character]

Pawn shop!

I did some cutting hulls shorter and loading light loads to CAS.
It didn't work well. I quit.

Post your results

 

[Howa 9700]

Hodgdon shows the WAA12 (white) being used in both the poly and the compression-formed AA.
https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center?rdc=true&type=55

Didn't see that on Hodgdon, but I still have all my manuals from back in the day and the wads for the Win poly formed hulls were different than for compression formed.



From left to right.......Alcan Unisleeve B, Win AA White, then Win AA Red (both genuine Win wads.....not clones), then Alcan Unisleeve A.

The AA white was used on compression formed AA hulls. The AA Red on poly formed hulls. The Alcans were often listed in load data as alternatives, but again, the height differs and the space they needed to fill was different, ergo A and B. The Alcans have a larger shot cup and could be used for 1 1/4 oz loads.

Just looking at them, one can see that the AA Red and White should not be used interchangably for the same loads.

 

[MEHavey]

Extract:


YMMV of course, so look it up on Hodgdon site for yourselves before using.

 

[entropy]

there is a note that says that loading data for the Winchester HS and Compression formed will interchange.

You may want to do more research on that. For some powders it is true, but for the bulkier powders with 9/8 ox. shot loads, the stack height will be too high, and your crimps won't hold, unless you go with a shorter wad. I switched from WAA-12 wads to DRA-12(B) wads. They are shorter, and correct the stack height. I switched over completely to Downrange wads shortly after, as the wad residue they left was almost non-existent. Downrange makes almost every type of wad. (Win., Rem., Fed., Windjammer, Versa-lite, etc.)

The AA white was used on compression formed AA hulls. The AA Red on poly formed hulls.

Incorrect. The Red wad was for hot loads with lighter shot charges in hunting loads (1 1/4, where the regular wad for 1 1/4 was the "yellow" wad (WAA-12F)) or very heavy shot loads with medium velocity. My Dad and I used them for our duck load, which was 1 1/2 oz. of Lubaloy #5's @ 1200fps, and our pheasant load , which was 1 1/4 oz of Lubaloy #5's at @ 1300. Both were long range "knock 'e down" loads, but steel shot put an end to that. The WAA-12 R was most definitely used in AA-CF hulls, as well as the AA-HS hulls. I have a bag of them from about 1984, long before the AA-HS hull exsisted, and I remember loading AA-CF hulls with them back in 1975, my first duck season. And as I mentioned, the WAA-12 can certainly be used for some loads in the AA-HS hull; but with bulkier powders, the WAA-12F or DRA-12B are much better choices to keep a good stack height.

 

[RealGun]

I do load them, but my Ljutic doesn't like them as reloads. Factory, they don't stick, but reloads did. That was before I got a Super Sizer. I might have to try them again in the Ljutic. They work fine in my Remingtons.




You don't load for Trap, I take it?

Actually the important part of the crimp is stack height, which is corrected by using wads that produce the correct stack height. Downrange makes several wads in the WAA-12 style, for instance, that are various heights, and can be used to adjust the stack height for a correct crimp. If your stacks are too short, toss a Cheerio in the wad before you drop the shot (being careful to hold the drop tube up from bottoming out a bit, so you don't smash the Cheerio or get it stuck in the drop tube. (Don't ask how I know this......)

You didn't explain how I deserved that comment. As far as patterning, I know generally about chokes but not the hull and crimp left behind, with the wad doing the real work down the tube.

 

[entropy]

You didn't explain how I deserved that comment. As far as patterning, I know generally about chokes but not the hull and crimp left behind, with the wad doing the real work down the tube.

The stack height and crimp determine how much of the initial pressure generated by the powder is used to open the hull and let the wad out to do it's thing: stack too short- crimp is folded down in, it takes more power to get it going, patterns spread. (ever so slightly perhaps-here's where the loading for Trap comes in. Some Trap shooters, like benchrest shooters will go to ridiculous lengths to optimize their handloads.) Stack too tall, the top of the shot in the hull is loose above the cup, crimp is domed. (and will open if not shot fairly soon after loading. I had some do just that. Luckily I noticed the bulges in the box and ran them all through the final crimp just before heading to the club. ) Results in blown patterns. At least mine did.

 

[wild03]

Pawn shop!

I did some cutting hulls shorter and loading light loads to CAS.
It didn't work well. I quit.

Post your results

Can you expand on your results? I'm going to try 1 oz slugs from a lee mold.

 

[Seedy Character]

I room a box of Rio dove loads, 12ga, 3 DE 1oz 8s.

I cut the hull down to 1 3/4" with a utility knife.
Dumped the shot and pulled the wad.
Cut them wad at bottom of shot cut to remove cushion from the wad.
Dumped the powder. It weighed 18 gr.


Put 10 gr powder in hull. Loaded wad. Loaded 1/2 oz of shot. Put card on too of shot. Crimped.

Crimps did not turn out good.
Shells were very eradic. Most shot good. Several were squibs. Better crimps would have help, I think. Maybe a changed in powder. Powder charge for .410 and 1/2 oz shot.

Shot them in SxS coach gun. Just use 7/8 oz 12 ga loads, now.