Help on a 12ga load

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Bravoman

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Hey party people, ok so I have a lee load all 2 loading some gun club hulls with 16.5gr of TITEWAD ,WAA12 clones wads with 1 1/8 load. When i load the wad in it seems to seat 1/8” under the fold line and when I go to crimp it folds down and lets lead shot out. What could be causing this. My thoughts are to change to a bulkier powder? Or add some over shot cards..

Something else is I have some old Winchester WAA12 wads that look different than the wads I took out from factory 12ga AA shells.
 
What folds and lets the shot out?

Where did you get this load data?
 
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What folds and lets the shot out?

Where did you get this load data?


The fold I’m referring to is where it rolls over and crimp starts.
Load was from lyman 5th edition page 163 I believe.

I will post pics when I get home tonight
 
The fold I’m referring to is where it rolls over and crimp starts.
Load was from lyman 5th edition page 163 I believe.

I will post pics when I get home tonight
Are you using the correct hulls?
I had issues using the same setup. I put an over shot card in it. I've read about this issue on multiple forums. So it's not just you and me having the same problem.
700-x loads didn't give me load density problems with the Lee load all.
 
If you're using the correct hull, then your powder/wad/shot aren't taking up enough space in it. Personally, I would never waste time with cards, I would just find a more appropriate load for the hulls using a more bulky powder, or a different wad, or both.
 
You'll need to adjust your stack height to get the right fold. Not enough it sinks in, too much and the fold won't close. If you were roll crimping then you would have more leeway.
 
One of the first things I learned when loading shotgun was to study the hull diagrams from my Lyman Shotgun manual. Showed the cutaways of each hull brand and type. The internal bases differed by a lot, and wads had to differ to match.

So "gun club hulls" would not help me. I'd want to know brand and type, so I could match hulls up to the right wads. Get that right and crimp and fold will always come out right.
 
Titewad is a very compact powder, and it is difficult to get a good case fill. I used the exact same load as you, but on a Hornady loader that has a lot more adjustments to be made. I was able to get them to crimp "decent," but just barely by tweaking every adjustment possible. You will want near zero pressure while seating the wad, crimp start as long as possible, and with the load all, the best you can get on the final crimp is doing it by 'feel' until it's right. This might get you there. An overshot card most definately will. Your load is on the mild side, and an overshot may safely be added. Once your TG is used up, you'll be much happier with a bulkier powder such as Red Dot, Green Dot, WST, or American Select. Availability is improving. Another option would be the WAA12SL wad which is designed for 1 oz of shot and takes up more space in the hull. You'll need a little wad pressure with these. Off book here, but I've found that to be a safe substitution. I've found the Rem Gun Club hulls to have some variability in capacity and crimp location (as with most bargain priced hulls). In particular, I've found them often to have a "short" crimping section. By gentle and deliberate pressure you can lengthen this in your crimp start station, which makes the crimp better if your powder/wad/shot column is short as in your case. If you get too rammy, you'll buckle the side walls.

As for the WAA12 wads, there is a slight difference between the older wads for the compression formed hulls and the newer wads for the HS AA hulls. It is supposedly irrelevant for reloading.

The way things are in the world, I would strongly encourage you to phase out 1 1/8oz loads and work towards 1 oz unless you have a specific need for the heavier charge. I made the switch several years ago when shot topped $40 a bag, and never looked back. My scores don't know the difference, even at the 23 yard line or farther.
 
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Are you using the correct hulls?

I’m sure I’m using the right hulls says gun club right on the side and split them in the middle to check visually as well.


I had issues using the same setup. I put an over shot card in it. I've read about this issue on multiple forums. So it's not just you and me having the same problem.
700-x loads didn't give me load density problems with the Lee load all.

Thanks I will try this haven’t got a chance to pick up some 700-x yet.

This is the other thing I’m seeing on the clay busters wad (CB1118-12)left and the Winchester wad (WAA12)right. Seems like they changed the hight of their wad recently.
Compared to the clay busters clone WAA12
 

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Titewad is a very compact powder, and it is difficult to get a good case fill. I used the exact same load as you, but on a Hornady loader that has a lot more adjustments to be made. I was able to get them to crimp "decent," but just barely by tweaking every adjustment possible. You will want near zero pressure while seating the wad, crimp start as long as possible, and with the load all, the best you can get on the final crimp is doing it by 'feel' until it's right. This might get you there. An overshot card most definately will. Your load is on the mild side, and an overshot may safely be added. Once your TG is used up, you'll be much happier with a bulkier powder such as Red Dot, Green Dot, WST, or American Select. Availability is improving. Another option would be the WAA12SL wad which is designed for 1 oz of shot and takes up more space in the hull. You'll need a little wad pressure with these. Off book here, but I've found that to be a safe substitution. I've found the Rem Gun Club hulls to have some variability in capacity and crimp location (as with most bargain priced hulls). In particular, I've found them often to have a "short" crimping section. By gentle and deliberate pressure you can lengthen this in your crimp start station, which makes the crimp better if your powder/wad/shot column is short as in your case. If you get too rammy, you'll buckle the side walls.

As for the WAA12 wads, there is a slight difference between the older wads for the compression formed hulls and the newer wads for the HS AA hulls. It is supposedly irrelevant for reloading.

The way things are in the world, I would strongly encourage you to phase out 1 1/8oz loads and work towards 1 oz unless you have a specific need for the heavier charge. I made the switch several years ago when shot topped $40 a bag, and never looked back. My scores don't know the difference, even at the 23 yard line or farther.

Thanks for the feed back I will definitely get a bulkier powder I also have long shot and international maybe can sub with one of those. And yes from the older Winchester WAA12 wads the skirt seem to be a little longer but it’s so thin down there I can’t see it affecting load data.
 
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Hey party people, ok so I have a lee load all 2 loading some gun club hulls with 16.5gr of TITEWAD ,WAA12 clones wads with 1 1/8 load. When i load the wad in it seems to seat 1/8” under the fold line and when I go to crimp it folds down and lets lead shot out. What could be causing this. My thoughts are to change to a bulkier powder? Or add some over shot cards..

Something else is I have some old Winchester WAA12 wads that look different than the wads I took out from factory 12ga AA shells.
Setting your crimp depth deeper might help; try it in small increments. A wad with a higher cup can compensate for bad l

The way things are in the world, I would strongly encourage you to phase out 1 1/8oz loads and work towards 1 oz unless you have a specific need for the heavier charge.

I just did so today; didn't change my scores any.
 
I try out the one ounce load, I’ll use the kids Cheerios for filler if it works out. I'll finish my bag of wads and replace with the WAA12SL.
 
Cheerios for filler. Hmmm.

We have had to declare the lower rifle range cold several times during the military matches when the resident deer and turkey forage across the range.

If we could persuade the shotgunners on the upper skeet range to use cherrios as filler in their shells, maybe the tame wildlife would hang out there.
 
First:
Looking at Hodgdon Site for 12ga, 2-3/4, Gun Club, WAA12, 1-1/8oz .... I see Titewad/all over the place load-wise depending on primer (from 15 - 18gr) so I don't think Titewad's the problem as far as shotcup depth goes.

Second:
I normally load AA hulls w/ WAA12, SL and L wads for the various 1-1/8, 1, and 7/8 oz shot loads -- Using that same Hodgdon data which matches up perfectly.
But I've found that the El Cheapo Gun Club hulls load 1-for-1 with the AA's for the same w/ excellent ("perfect") results as well

Soooooo.....
How much pressure are you putting on the wad/shotcup after it first starts to bottom out? (Should be "none" if you're not going to collapse it)
 
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Cheerios for filler. Hmmm.

We have had to declare the lower rifle range cold several times during the military matches when the resident deer and turkey forage across the range.

If we could persuade the shotgunners on the upper skeet range to use cherrios as filler in their shells, maybe the tame wildlife would hang out there.

We had a doe out by the limit stakes last night during Annie Oakleys; we were trying to hit the birds so chips off the them would land on her. They're so unafraid of people on the ranges at the club because they know we won't shoot at them.

Second:
I normally load AA hulls w/ WAA12, SL and L wads for the various 1-1/8, 1, and 7/8 oz shot loads -- Using that same Hodgdon data which matches up perfectly.
But I've found that the El Cheapo Gun Club hulls load 1-for-1 with the AA's for the same w/ excellent ("perfect") results as well

I will have to note here that there are two different types of AA hulls out there; One of them hasn't been made for 20 years, but they are still out there. Those are the AA-CF (compression formed) hulls, made until 2000, when the AA-HS hulls began to be sold. (I know this because I have some 1999 Grand AA's which are AA-CF, and 2000 Grand AA hulls which are AA-HS)

AA-CF's have a matte look to the hull; AA-HS have a smooth shiny look. Early AA-HS hulls do not have 'AA HS' at 9 and 3 on the headstamp. Later ones do; some claim the basewads of the early AA-HS will come out and stick in the barrel, (sounds like a stuck wad) but I have never had I happen. I have enough AA-HS hulls now that I have begun separating them out as I sort, however.

The basewad is where I am going with this rambling rumination. AA-CF's have the basewad integral to the hull, thus allow more volume. AA-HS have a separate basewad that has a large taper to it, thus making it hard for some bulky powders in higher powered shells (Handicap, for instance) to fit, particularly with 1 1/8ozs. shot and WAA-12 wads. There are several solutions for this; Before Downrange came out with their DRA-12 (bronze colored) wad, some reloaders would use WAA-12F114 (Win. yellow 12 ga field load wad) with a Cheerio inside the wad, like for 1 oz. loads with the WAA-12 wad. I just use the DRA-12; As a matter of fact I now only use Downrange wads, though I still have some WAA-12's I keep in reserve.

The Gun Club hulls load exactly the same as AA-CF, Rem. STS/Nitro, or Remington Premier and Rem/Peters Blue Magic hulls. Your older WAA-12 wads are fine in any of these.
 
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I've use the Load All for about 28 years but just recently bought a Mec 600jr. I can tell you with certainty your problem is wad pressure. When you lower the handle on the Lee there is no wad pressure stop which makes you compress the powder and causes the wad to go to deep, even crushing the wad within the hull at times. The fix is to set the wad to just hear it snap pass the hull top edge. Drop the shot and manually compress the shot and wad to just about even with the fold. Now let the crimp set the wad pressure and you will eliminate the crimp from collapsing and get a much more consistent shotshell.
 
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Principle still applies (don't insert/crush the wad past the point of initial bottoming out on seating)

The instructions on the Load-All say "seat the wad til you feel the correct amount of resistance"
which is sorta like saying "heat the Springfield receiver til it looks right" (Bad JuJu)

Trial & error seat a wad until it's (about) 3/16" past the top of the hull and (roughly) even/just slightly above where the fold starts.
MARK the wad seater tube with pencil where it sits at the top of the wad guide.

Use that mark from then on.



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Principle still applies (don't insert/crush the wad past the point of initial bottoming out on seating)

The instructions on the Load-All say "seat the wad til you feel the correct amount of resistance"
which is sorta like saying "heat the Springfield receiver til it looks right" (Bad JuJu)

Trial & error seat a wad until it's (about) 3/16" past the top of the hull , and (roughly) even/just slightlu above where the fold starts.
MARK the wad seater tube with pencil where it sits at the top of the wad guide.

Use that mark from then on.



.
You know, it took me 5 years, 28 years ago to figure this out with the Lee. It's nice to get answers in 2 days, today. The young have it to easy today :rofl:
 
It has been many years since I reloaded 12 gauge and have zero experience with the Lee Load All. But most shot shell presses have adjustments for how much pressure is applied to the wad and should have adjustments for the crimp depth.

I know that when I switched from using Winchester 3" Super X 410 hulls to Cheddite 3" hulls, I had to adjust the crimp stations on my MEC 600 press. The 410 uses a shot cup versus a true wad. And you usually have to make small adjustments on the other gauges when switching hulls.
 
Setting your crimp depth deeper might help; try it in small increments. A wad with a higher cup can compensate for bad l



I just did so today; didn't change my scores any.
Now get brave and drop down to 7/8 or even to 3/4!:D
I love my 3/4oz 12 and 20 gauge loads; I can shoot 3-400 in a day with no fatigue
 
It has been many years since I reloaded 12 gauge and have zero experience with the Lee Load All. But most shot shell presses have adjustments for how much pressure is applied to the wad and should have adjustments for the crimp depth.

I know that when I switched from using Winchester 3" Super X 410 hulls to Cheddite 3" hulls, I had to adjust the crimp stations on my MEC 600 press. The 410 uses a shot cup versus a true wad. And you usually have to make small adjustments on the other gauges when switching hulls.
The Lee has no adjustments; it's all done by "feel" which is why most folks do not like them.
OP -
It sounds like your stack height isn't all there . Personally, I use Titewad, but with a 3/4oz load - something it excels at
 
Now get brave and drop down to 7/8 or even to 3/4!:D
I love my 3/4oz 12 and 20 gauge loads; I can shoot 3-400 in a day with no fatigue

I can shoot that with my 1 1/8 Handicap loads with 3 of my 4 Trap guns, they have Gra-Coils; I won't put one on my Ithaca 4E, and I don't shoot that one much.
The only fatigue is from lifting that 10 lb. Ljutic to my shoulder that many times!

I might have to look at 7/8 oz. loads for my 16 yard league rounds. :thumbup:
 
The Lee has no adjustments; it's all done by "feel" which is why most folks do not like them.
As noted a few posts above, initially establish wad height right at fold height
by trial/error -- then MARK the wad-seater tube for that level.
:D


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