13-Year-Old Suspect Killed In Armed Robbery Attempt

[Fred Fuller]

One of the more difficult things to have to deal with is that VCAs are getting younger too. But this is one more fact we have to prepare ourselves to possibly confront. A couple of web sources indicate that the normal height of a 13-year-old boy is 5' to 5' 5" and the normal weight is 100 to 140 pounds.

It might be easy to take such a situation too lightly, I'd think. I've heard of people who did so ("He had a knife, but he was so young, and I didn't want to shoot him, so..."), and suffered for it for the rest of their lives. I often say here that we never know what we're going to get in the game of VCA roulette. It might be someone carrying out their first felony. Which might well mean that they are even more unpredictable and therefore more dangerous than a more experienced VCA.

It's not possible to know what is in another person's mind or within their capacity to do in a potentially violent confrontation. We have to deal with what we can see, and what we can know. We have to be able to articulate why we responded to the situation in the way we did.

And then we have to live with it thereafter...
=============================

http://www.wsfa.com/story/17997141/13-year-old-suspect-killed-during-robbery
13-year-old suspect killed during robbery
Posted: May 01, 2012 8:12 AM EDT
Updated: May 01, 2012 3:51 PM EDT
By Melanie Posey
By Melynda Sides, Digital Content Producer

BIRMINGHAM, AL (WBRC) -
Birmingham police say a 13-year-old robbery suspect was shot and killed by the person he tried to rob in Birmingham Friday night.

...

BPD Sgt. Johnny Williams said the teen suspect approached a couple as they pulled into their home at the gated Skyview Condominiums in the 400 block of Skyview Drive around 11:10pm. Friday, April 27. Skyview Drive is off Robert Jemison Road. The suspect had a T-shirt over his face like a bandana and was holding a cocked and loaded gun, Williams said.

Police say the would-be robber approached the male occupant of the car and told him to "Get out and give it up." The man had his own gun in the car and shot the teenager. The teen ran a few feet, collapsed and died at the scene, Williams said.
=====

 

[sidheshooter]

Not good. Sounds like everyone got the short end of the stick on that one; the homeowner who was forced to defend himself and his, the family of the kid and, especially, the kid himself.

Ultimately, it reads like this one is on the 13 year old, but one wonders where he learned to jack cars at 13.

 

[tipoc]

Ultimately, it reads like this one is on the 13 year old, but one wonders where he learned to jack cars at 13.

TV. Video game, Or maybe the internet. Or maybe friends. It ain't new though. How old was William Bonney when he stole his first horse? Young people have been killing people for a long time now.

tipoc

 

[Nushif]

TV. Video game, Or maybe the internet. Or maybe friends.

Interesting order that ...

More likely the order is this:
Brothers, friends, friends, friends, brothers, friends maybe TV, Videogames or the internet.

If I listened to everything I was taught by the TV I'd be a very happy, colorful and very scientifically educated person wearing a blue coverall and round little glasses.

Legally and more on point though, if they can prove that he was holding a cocked and locked gun and doing a carjacking it's a pretty darned clear-cut case. Unless of course the state they're in doesn't allow use of force over property.

 

[heeler]

A terrible thing for sure.
However,there is a culture out there that truely does glamorize the jack up man.
In fact it can be a rite a passage for some in certain communities.
Day before yesterday we had a cop here had shot a 14 year old that was burglarizing a school at 12:30 at night.
Fact of the matter is a lot of kids like this come from dysfunctional homes with one parent missing and many times both have already been through the criminal justice system.
They learn young and often times die young.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Billy the Kid was apparently 15 the first time he stole a gun and escaped from jail. If this is a new trend, it has an old tradition behind it.

 

[rajb123]

Apparently justice has been served. Still a tragedy, however....

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by rajb123: Apparently justice has been served. Still a tragedy, however....

Let us not fall into the trap of confusing the administration of justice with a necessary act of self defense.

The former would have involved the apprehension of the suspect, an investigation, and charges, and a sentence prescribed by law, hopefully before the juvenile criminal actor had injured anyone.

The latter involves the unavoidable use of deadly force, sometimes resulting in death, for self preservation; in most jurisdictions, robbery, which is not considered a property crime, would justify the use of such force.

 

[skoro]

Armed robbery is a risky career at ANY age.

 

[MedWheeler]

Unless of course the state they're in doesn't allow use of force over property.

Most states do not. However, in virtually all states, it would be perfectly legal to resist the taking of one's property and confront the "taker", then use force to defend oneself when threatened by the person confronted.
In this case, the defender did not kill the youth "over a car." He shot the youth because he believed the youth might have very well killed him for one.

 

[DAP90]

In addition to being less willing to use lethal force I wonder if people have a tendency to do more with a young suspect on the other end of the spectrum than they normally would with an adult. By that I mean with a kid people might be more willing to attempt to physically wrestle the weapon away or try to talk down/intimidate a suspect.

Sort of an, I’m the adult and in-charge here, or I can handle this kid kind of reaction.

Potentially that’s even more dangerous as a kid doesn’t have the same restraint, understanding of consequences or reactions to events that an adult would. An adult criminal might run when his easy mark turns out not to be so. A kid might shoot because he gets scared.

 

[ForumSurfer]

Potentially that’s even more dangerous as a kid doesn’t have the same restraint, understanding of consequences or reactions to events that an adult would.

Precisely why I believe younger would-be criminals are far and away more dangerous than a grown, hardened and seasoned violent criminal. The latter knows when to pick a fight and when to back away, the first has something to prove and generally doesn't care about consequences and repercussions.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Unless of course the state they're in doesn't allow use of force over property.

Most states do not.

As I'm sure you both meant, most states do not allow lethal force over property by a private citizen; those that do specify some connection to the defender's home.

But most states (all?) do allow you to resist the illegal taking of property with some level of force. The conundrum here is if you are armed, and you "actively confront" a person taking your property, and the confrontation escalates and ends with you shooting him, well, how wise was that?

It's an issue that may deserve its own thread (and likely has had several already), and would seem to me to hinge on the value of the property, the legal presumptions in place in any given locale that a homeowner using lethal force is "in the right," and importantly whether the value system of the individual is more set at "I don't want to kill anyone I don't have to" vs "somebody's got to stop these thieves, so it might as well be me, right now."

 

[ForumSurfer]

As I'm sure you both meant, most states do not allow lethal force over property by a private citizen; those that do specify some connection to the defender's home.

But most states (all?) do allow you to resist the illegal taking of property with some level of force. The conundrum here is if you are armed, and you "actively confront" a person taking your property, and the confrontation escalates and ends with you shooting him, well, how wise was that?

It's an issue that may deserve its own thread (and likely has had several already), and would seem to me to hinge on the value of the property, the legal presumptions in place in any given locale that a homeowner using lethal force is "in the right," and importantly whether the value system of the individual is more set at "I don't want to kill anyone I don't have to" vs "somebody's got to stop these thieves, so it might as well be me, right now."

In the case mentioned here, I don't get the property association. Yeah, he wants my property. But the threat he is posing to my life is the important thing. It isn't the "give me the car" part, it is the "loaded gun and threat to kill" part. Whether he said "Give me your car" or "I love your hair," the fact that he is threatening mine and my family's life with deadly force outweighs the property issue. I'd be acting to defend my life, not my property.

 

[Loosedhorse]

You seem to be implying that in a robbery, your only option is to shoot it out--that you've already decided. For some, depending on the circumstance and "read", letting the robber have the propery might be the better option.

Up to you.

 

[Fred Fuller]

In this case, the defender did not kill the youth "over a car." He shot the youth because he believed the youth might have very well killed him for one.

This is IMHO the crux of this case...

 

[ForumSurfer]

You seem to be implying that in a robbery, your only option is to shoot it out--that you've already decided. For some, depending on the circumstance and "read", letting the robber have the propery might be the better option.

Up to you.

Not my intent. I'm just stressing that if I feel it does come to a point where I have no choice but to draw and fire...it has nothing to do with property retention.

Lethal force over property strikes me as being someone stealing my car while I'm not in it. Put me in the car, and now we have an imminent and direct threat on my life.

I don't care to argue if we should let him have or draw and fire, I would just like to point out that the propery is irrelevant and overshadowed by the threat on one's life. Similar to, say...I can't respond with deadly force if someone is calling me names, but that suddenly no longer matters if the name caller is holding a deadly weapon.

that you've already decided

I haven't. There are so many variables I can't tell you what I'd do unless I was in the situation. We can what if each other to death...

 

[Kleanbore]

^^^^

Well put.

 

[j1]

preparedness

If you had to draw at that point you were not well prepared. Self defense not retention of property is the issue.

 

[rajb123]

Earlier response (in part):
....However, in virtually all states, it would be perfectly legal to resist the taking of one's property and confront the "taker", then use force to defend oneself when threatened by the person confronted.


I dont see this situation as a justifiable shooting involving a car jacking where prersonal property is being taken. Rather, it is an individual responding to an attacker who is armed with an gun and making demands that put the lives of the couple in danger.

 

[loneviking]

What's really troubling to me about these youngster is that often they either run in packs or they are with two or thee other, older guys. Had a multiple shooting spree here in Carson and Reno last year. Four young men counting the driver. The youngest was thirteen and he killed the third victim that this group shot that night. It would be a gut wrenching decision to drop the hammer on a kid that young. My son is fourteen, and its hard for me to wrap my head around the idea of a kid that young killing someone.

 

[Owen Sparks]

This is the sort of thing that soldiers in Viet Nam struggled with. I met an old soldier turned preacher who had to shoot a child carrying a live hand grenade who tried to run into a tent where his platoon was watching a movie. He is convinced that someone put the child up to it but he still could not let his buddies get blown up.

 

[tipoc]

Such shootings are sensational but they are not new. Also not much to get oneself worked up over-as in "that's how they roll in the hood", etc.

What's preferable, a 13 year old trying to steal a car and threatening to kill someone to get it (the threat to take a life is what led to the shooting) or a 15 year old with piercings and a black leather trench coat shooting up their school and killing a few classmates cuz they don't like Mondays?

A lotta room to get morally outraged in these cases and others. Makes for good ammo for an outraged rant. "See what the world's coming too...", "the moral decline of America!", etc. But it don't tell you much about self defense.

Last time I looked stealing a car gets a person sent to jail and not to the chamber for an injection or a life in the joint. Society decided that and the opinion of society trumps your and my prejudices. Society also decided that you and I have a right to defend ourselves and others and in the face of deadly force have a right to use the same to stop the attack.

These are important words..."Officer I have nothing to say until I have spoken to a lawyer."

tipoc

 

[JColdIron]

You seem to be implying that in a robbery, your only option is to shoot it out--that you've already decided. For some, depending on the circumstance and "read", letting the robber have the propery might be the better option.

In a previous thread it was said that when presented with the threat of deadly force, choosing to disarm or not respond with deadly force was to depend on the mercy of the would be robber not to be killed.

Pointing a gun at someone is serious business and should be treated as such. I am not willing to reliquish my ability to defend myself on the "hope" that the robber will not kill me for my property, by accident, or due to some presumed slight or injustice. They have already signaled to me that they are willing to kill by pointing the gun at me.

Anyone faced with this has to make the decision on their own.

 

[Elm Creek Smith]

Point a gun at me, you're likely to get shot. I refuse to discriminate on account of age.

Locally, last year(?) two youngsters went into a convenience store, and one of them shot a .22 rifle into the ceiling. Fearing for his life, the clerk opened fire and killed the shooter. The other armed youngster fled.

The dead youngster was 14.

ECS