Strategy against pack robberies

[no_problem]

The news article below shows a recent trend. Packs of young men surround the victim(s) and rob them or assault them.

I have heard corroberating stories from friends, they are even trying this attack strategy on those hapless delivery persons delivering order out meals. from restaurants.

Concealed carry? what to do when surrounded by thugs? Comments?

Police cite pack robberies increasing in N.Va. suburbs

http://www.examiner.com/a-1500776~P...g_in_N_Va__suburbs.html?cid=rss-Washington_DC

WASHINGTON (Map, News) - Pack robberies, a phenomenon more common to urban streets, is spreading to Northern Virginia suburbs after already becoming commonplace in Montgomery County, police said.

Over the weekend, Fairfax County and Fairfax City police believe two separate, gun-wielding packs robbed a total of four people.

The first attack was around 3:45 a.m. on the 4500 block of Colony Court in Mount Vernon. A group of five or six men wearing dark clothing approached a Hyattsville man and an Alexandria man, both 24, who were standing outside an apartment building, Fairfax County police said.

One of the men was pistol-whipped, the other punched. The group of youths made off with an undisclosed amount of cash and have yet to be caught.

Later that day, a group of teens attacked a husband and wife as they walked along Sager Avenue near Barbour Drive in Fairfax City, police said.

Around 10:45 p.m., a group of six men surrounded the couple, demanded money, and one of the culprits pulled out a handgun. The husband quickly flagged down a passing car and called 911 on a cell phone, causing the men to flee without the cash they wanted.

About 30 minutes later, a patrol officer caught five people who had been ejected from a birthday party after causing a disturbance, Fairfax City police said.

Four of them, Benjamin Clagget Jones, 19, of D.C., Antoine Darnell Harris, 19, of Lynchburg, Va., a 16-year-old from the District and a 17-year-old from Prince George’s County, were charged with attempted robbery after being identified as suspects in the earlier robbery. The fifth was let go.

“We haven’t seen anything like this before,” said Fairfax City police spokeswoman Officer Lynn Coulter. “But we are warning people to keep an eye out.”

Across the Potomac, however, pack robberies have already taken root.

Packs of teens ripping off residents has long been an urban phenomenon, but in 2007, Montgomery reported that although the overall percentage of robberies dropped by 6 percent, 17 percent were described as pack robberies, a jump from previous years, when they barely existed, county police said.

But the arrests of nine Fairfax City residents in the Saturday-night attack may mean a somewhat different phenomenon is taking place there than in Montgomery, where the “majority are homegrown,” said Montgomery County police spokeswoman Lucille Baur.
...

 

[ar10]

There is no real strategy for that type of crime, nor is there one for the thousands of other violent crimes. Pack crimes are pretty around here, and happens very suddenly, There's no time for the victim to react even if he/she is carrying a gun. There are as many attacks as there are Pack crimes. Pack crimes seldom have actual adults with them, they are mostly young teens looking for quick money or trying to make a name for themselves.

 

[no_problem]

If you are carrying, then in a pack attack, your gun becomes a liability, not a life saving asset. How about OC or pepper spray if suddenly attacked by a gang?

Also, I should think that a quick and vigorous response attack on the biggest guy in the attacking gang/clan should temporarily stun the other attackers, no?

 

[brighamr]

This is very similar to the recent "gangs" threads, which were all locked quite quickly.

My take: if anyone is coming towards you, especially a group of people; keep alert and try to avoid them. If they continue to approach, confront them while they are 10-15 feet away. At least you'll have enough time to do something rather than get jumped.

 

[no_problem]

Sorry if I missed those. If this is too controversial, please delete. I just became concerned due to the how this kind of attack can affect CCW'ers like me.

Although I live in the suburbs, I happen to work daily in a high crime metro area. I also lived through the LA riots. This type of news hits quite close to home.

Now that I am no longer single and have a family, I have much more things to keep myself awake at nights.

Again, if the topic has crossed the line in any way, I apologize and please feel free to delete this.

 

[FCFC]

As one of our members has said:

"The best technique to survive a shootout is to be somewhere else."

Same for pack robberies.

 

[W.E.G.]

Having a gun during a robbery is a liability???

Wrong Answer.

Draw
Align sights
Press
Repeat

No time to react???

Ever hear of situational awareness?
If you have room to draw, you have room to defend your self.

tutorial
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-zJlsc8GU50

 

[Picard]

One of my friends recently told me that he was attacked and mugged a few years ago in Champaign, IL (central Illinois).

As he was walking home from a party, a car pulled up and three guys jumped out, grabbing him and taking his wallet along with his cell phone. I don't know if three guys sounds like a pack, but the strategies are similar.

There is strength in numbers and the thugs are starting to realize that too.

 

[MechAg94]

I remember reading a while back some comments from a police officer about why he liked solid steel guns like the 1911. If you had to knock someone over the head with it, it wouldn't damage the gun. In a case like this, you might not be able to shoot the gun, but it may come in handy anyway. At least it is better than bare hands.

Other than that, situational awareness is all I can suggest. If you see it coming, you have a much better chance of coming out ahead.

 

[SAWBONES]

If you are carrying, then in a pack attack, your gun becomes a liability, not a life saving asset.

Wrong-headedness.

In a pack attack, the obvious disparity of force makes instant use of your gun viable and appropriate.
You can at least better the odds by shooting some, and hopefully the others may even be put to flight.
I can't see how the gun would "become a liability" unless you lacked the fortitude to employ it in the first place.

 

[SomeKid]

Pack robberies are nothing new. They have been happening at the University I attend ever since I started, and likely before. The area just so happens to be a gun free zone...

My plan if I am ever attacked in such a manner is to desperately fight for my life, mainly because the ones around here don't always let you go.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by FCFC:
As one of our members has said:

"The best technique to survive a shootout is to be somewhere else."

Same for pack robberies.

Easier said that done, FC.

Pack attacks often happen in an instant, when you least expect them.

You're walking through a mall parking lot, when all of a sudden four armed punks pile out of a nearby car and are on top of you before you know it.

It's pretty hard to be "somewhere else" at that point in time.

 

[Deus Machina]

Avoid it if possible.

If you can't, and you winded up surrounded, explode. You have to go from your quiet innocent state to violence incarnate so fast you'll need a Delorean to time it. The element of surprise and 'OMGWTF!?' needs to work for you.

Shoot the apparent leader, and the split-second he's bleeding, move onto the other nearest targets. When it breaks, chase the slowest runner foaming at the mouth and throwing stuff.

It works, and it's what (sans shooting) kept my untrained sub-120-pound self intact through high school, and no one would even give me a dirty look during my last three years.

 

[Mp7]

early response is key i guess.

If you are alone, draw
"freeze!" - then shoot - for the legs
if u r not sure they are armed.
If armed - go tactical, take cover, deliver.

...with a girl with me... i´m not sure,
maybe throw wallet at them - then draw.

 

[Defensory]

Multiple perpetrator surprise attacks are very hard to defend. But where there's a will, there's a way. There's no 100% solution, but you can definitely do things that will increase your odds of survival.

A large caliber, high capacity semi-automatic and a couple of extra magazines is a good starting point in formulating a defensive plan.

Also, a medium-sized container of pepper foam or pepper gel would be a good idea.

When you're walking through a parking lot, keep the pepper container in your non-gun firing hand, discreetly down by your side, with your finger or thumb on the spray button, until you get inside your car and lock the door.

If some attackers jump out of a nearby car, or from behind a nearby car, and are nearly on top of you in an instant---you're most likely not going to have time to draw your gun. You may be better off spraying them with the pepper foam/gel that you have ready in your hand, and seeking immediate cover behind the nearest vehicle or any other large object with the capability of stopping bullets.

Of course, you draw your firearm during the course of seeking cover. If any or all of the perps choose to continue the attack, you take the measures you feel are necessary.

I want to stress that this is only one viable option I'm presenting, and I'm not claiming that it would be be effective in all situations. As a rule, the more attackers there are, the less your chances of survival.

Try to attend training courses offered by proven organizations and individuals like Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Massad Ayoob etc. Ask questions whenever possible.

 

[Defensory]

Let's try to keep the posts on a serious level. Excerpts from "Kill Bill" type movies will probably get this thread locked.

 

[JWarren]

This is very similar to the recent "gangs" threads, which were all locked quite quickly.

Yes, but that was CRITGIT and my fault.


-- John

 

[Titan6]

A large caliber, high capacity semi-automatic and a couple of extra magazines is a good starting point in formulating a defensive plan.

In Iraq maybe. Shooting at a crowd of people with one will probably get you killed by the police just as fast as by the gang in the States.

This is hardly new but these maybe growing in popularity because they are hard to defend against. Three times I have had to deal with such attacks starting at the age of 12. At the age of 12 there wasn't much to be done but let them take my watch and $3 cash I had on me. Certainly there was no way for me to fight five older teens unarmed.

At the age of 26 however with a pistol things were 100% different. One display of the gun and they went flying. They did not seem determined. I don't think many young toughs are determined these days.

Then about a year and half ago at the age of 39 a commanding voice and a veiled threat of gun was enough to drive off a group of younger teens. It does not hurt that I am of more than modest size either. (Strange it seems to happen every 13 years?)

Every situtation is different but groups are the hardest obviously. Maintain your confidence and an illusion of control over the situation and it may spread to the actors. But be prepared just in case.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Does everyone here own a copy of Principles of Personal Defense? ( http://www.paladin-press.com/product/772/27 ) If not, have you ever read it?

Yes?

No?

Simply put, if you have not read this little book, you should consider it a MUST. You should not waste time posting here, or reading here, until you have acquainted yourself with this material. This is BASIC. This is kindergarten. This is "See Spot run." I'm serious. It's vitally important in informing your thinking and your activity. It is a must.

You don't have to buy it- I'm not shilling for Paladin. Your local library may have a copy, if not, they can borrow it for you on interlibrary loan. Or you might be able to borrow a copy from a friend. Find a copy at the local used book store, or get one online from abebooks or alibris. Heck, even Amazon lists used books now.

BUT there is no excuse for NOT having read this little book. None. This book covers the absolute basic knowledge, skills and abilities you must foster within yourself if you are to expand your chances at remaining healthy on the street. Granted, even if you take this material to heart and master it fully, there will be times when "your awareness fails," as Southnarc puts it.

But unless you consciously and deliberately develop your awareness- then your awareness will fail more often than not.

Your Mindset is the foundation upon which all else is built. You must develop a proper mindset, or nothing else will help you. This little book is the primer on mindset. It matters not what you can do with a spinning flying double ballerina back side kick. It matters not that you own every Master Blaster Crook Dispatcher ever to leave the assembly line, and all the ammunition for them ever produced too. Mindset. Skillset. Toolset. In that order!

Mindset comes first. You must master mindset first. This little book is the simplest instruction I know of in mastering mindset. For over a dozen years I either worked in or ran the library where US Army Special Forces soldiers go to school. We bought this book in multiple copies, regularly and repeatedly, because it got not returned so regularly. That's an endorsement if I ever heard of one.

Get it yourself. Read it. Study it. Master it.

Or else "participating" here is all simply an exercise in futility. I am not willing to tolerate S&T being an exercise in futility.

Either DO THE WORK, or live with the consequences- both here, and far more importantly, on the street.

lpl/nc

 

[Titan6]

Lee, that is the theroy of "defensive behavior".

 

[jeepmor]

If you have time to draw, shoot the Alpha first. Most Betas and lower scatter quickly after that.

I can't think of any other method besides scooting out before the situation occurs.

As a new father with a 7 month old boy, any crowd of perps that waff of ill-intent will be quickly looking down the business end of a .45. Also, I'd gladly give up my wallet to avoid any injury or danger to my family. I can always make more money. Plus, a wallet on the ground should turn their attention off me long enough to draw said 45.

Glad I live in an area that this type of situation rarely occurs. However, it has, and I know someone directly that had her husband beat nearly to death by some reckless teens in the late 90s timeframe. It made the news, the youths are paying for their actions as they were apprehended and caught. The family's life will never be the same as the father just isn't the same person anymore due to the head injuries sustained in the assault.

So, that said, it is a real concern and a topic worthy of discussion in my opinion, not simply chest thumping bravado ilk. This very thing has happened in my very back yard so to say, only about 3-4 miles from my residence. So please don't think I'm responding like a mall ninja or armchair commando in these regards.

 

[ar10]

I've read hundreds of police/victims reports on "pack attacks". The one thing that stands out more than anything else is there is no consistent pattern.
They happen 24 hrs a day, broad daylight to dawn. The suspects can be as young as 10 and as old as 30+. They approach the "prey" by walking up to them, on bicycles, and cars, weapons range from smacking the victim with fists and kicking them after their down. Baseball bats, pipes, knives, 2x4's, bb guns to .45's.
The modes are always different. asking for a light, kidnapping and taken to the "pack", one approaches while others wait in the shadows.
The list is extensive and no person can always be prepared. What is consistent is they are increasing almost daily and a large majority of cities under report them.

 

[Tim Burke]

Does everyone here own a copy of Principles of Personal Defense?

That post ought to be its own sticky at the top S&T.

 

[Derek Zeanah]

The only defense I can see is this: maintain situational awareness at all times.

This includes while driving. I get a bit paranoid of cars that seem to be following me, and will do things like change my route to see if they continue to follow (the last thing I want to do is lead a potential predator to my house). This actually paid off once when a car full of young males was following me home in Jacksonville and made the same 5 sequential right turns immediately behind me, and I was able to lose them in traffic.

You've got to know what's going on around you. In my opinion good situational awareness can keep you out of most self defense situations, and a total lack of situational awareness takes away most of your options as your attackers get to set up the situation on their own terms.

 

[Pilot]

They are cowards. The second you pull a gun, they will run screaming like little school girls. When I see packs or any group of young males approaching me, I have my hand on my gun. If they approach me I will pull it before they get close enough to harm me.