13 yr old poses ethics question...

[lizziedog1]

I knew this guys back in California that was an avid duck hunter. One day he was sitting next to a pond when a warden approached. The officer wanted to see his shells to make sure they were nontoxic. As he stood up, several shells fell into the water and sank.

He was issued a fine for having illegal ammo. This is a very serious offense, it is a Federal Crime, he was at Federal Refuge. The warden believed he dumped the ammo into the water to hide it from him. He did get a lawyer and had to go to Fedeeral Court.

I am sorry, but I moved out of the area before learning of the outcome of his case.

 

[H&Hhunter]

California Law Enforcement...

Do we need say more?

 

[hogshead]

No I would not .For the rest who said they would, do you call a state trooper when you are riding with you wife and she speeds?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Some of the answers I think so far are not what folks would do, but what they believe they would do. When confronted by the actual circumstances, they might not. Not all, just some.

I was taught a poacher was a person who deliberately violated game laws. The person knew it was wrong according to law, and did it anyway. Not the same as the person knew the law, thought they were complying with law, and later discovered they had made an error.

I think it's my job to teach my child ethics and to follow the laws. I don't think I would call in a mistake by my 13 year old if he/she accidentally shot the wrong sex deer for the tag that they could fill. He's not poaching, and if I know my child well enough to go hunting, I should be able to judge if it was truly a misidentification. I don't think I need an official member of the government to appear, for me to make my point and teach the lesson. It's partially MY FAULT if the child incorrectly identified the target. IF I need a stranger with authority to make my point..., I haven't taught my child, and shouldn't be hunting with my child in the first place.

I would take the child's firearm, and they would be done for that hunting season. I would still go out hunting, without them, to prove the point. Kids hate to be left behind when there is fun involved. The kid would have to "earn" that firearm back in the off season, to go out the following year with me.

When your juvenile child gets into the liquor cabinet or into the beer or wine, will you be calling the police for underage drinking?

In the poaching question, it was a mistake, but in the liquor question the kid didn't mistake the tequila or Miller for lemonade; the kid knew what was up.

When your 16 year old drives over the speed limit, though is keeping pace with surrounding traffic, do you call the cops? Do you even notice?

IF you see your kid racing down the street in the car you gave permission to drive, will you take the keys and the kid's driver's license, or will you also call the cops so they get a ticket?

So does ethics only apply to the full extent of the laws when hunting, but outside of hunting, different ethics apply?

Ethics in this thread refers to "the moral fitness of a course of action", which is different than the dogmatic adherence to the wording of a law.

Therefore in-and-of-itself, it would not be a violation of ethics for a person to omit reporting an accidental violation of hunting regulations by a child.

LD

 

[Art Eatman]

Sticking to "my kid": I'm not about to call any outsider in if he accidentally messes up. The key word is "accidental". I'll deal with all the moral and ethical issues involved. That's a parent's job.

If he were to wilfully do wrong, then that right there is a sign that I've been failing in how I've been teaching him. If I thought that such an event were likely, odds are that he wouldn't have been along on a hunting trip, anyway. I only hunt with people whom I can trust.

 

[BADUNAME37]

My younger brother was hunting legally with a friend of his, hunting doves at about 16 or whatever age was legal at the time in PA to hunt on the State Game Lands without parental assistance.

He shot what he thought was a dove and they proceeded to put it in his friend's game bag (part of the hunting vest, in the huge back pocket).

A PA game warden must have heard the shots as suddenly my brother and his friend were confronted by this guy. He asked what they were hunting, had they gotten anything and my brother admitted he had shot a dove -- the very reason for being there! The game warden asked to see it and told him it was not a dove but instead was some kind of rare migratory species with a fancy name like a yellow-billed-brown-gray-miniature cookoo (something no one but the game warden had ever heard of -- except for possibly the Audibon Society)!

Anyway, long story short, he was going to make an example of my brother and gave him some kind of ridiculous fine (back in the early 70's) which I recall to be around two hundred and some dollars! In the 70's, at that time, gas was about 30 cents a gallon. Multiply today how much a gallon of gas is and you would multiply by 10. So, multiply his $200+ fine by ten to get some kind of picture of how much this game warden was fining him!

I remember he worked it off and paid the fine. Fortunately, he had no other punishment or penalty beyond that (he could still hunt and still obtain licenses).

So, those here who state they would NOT report it, I can understand why! I suppose if I asked that brother this question his response would be something like "are you crazy? Forget it, cover the thing over and it never happened!"

So, in a way, it goes to show just how we can easily look at those over us as being authoritative and wanting to SHOW THAT AUTHORITY at all costs!

 

[youngda9]

In Colorado I've seen several cases where guys screwed up shooting the wrong animal. In every case the guys that turned themselves in were given a small fine they were either allowed to keep the animal or were issued another tag and allowed to continue to hunt.....But that is Colorado they tend to have a very good attitude towards guys that turn themselves in.

Not the case for me. I shot an illegal bull a couple years ago in CO. I had a bull license($525), and saw a legal bull. I got the scope on him and accidentaly shot a different one, a spike, the head was hidden behind a pine tree. I couldn't believe it when I got up to the animal. They must have moved while I grabbed my rifle and got on target...it was in the exact same position of the legal bull.

We discussed what to do, and decided to do the right thing and report it. The warden took my $525 license, gave me a ticket($75 if I remember correct), and took the meat. Told me I could go purchase another license if I'd like, YEAH RIGHT. I asked him if this policy of taking the meat, giving a ticket, and voiding the license would encourage people to do the right thing by the law...he wasn't sure.

He claimed that every dead animal had to have a tag associated with it...fine, but don't take the meat and fine me on top of it.

I would have been perfectly happy if he said well that's what you got with your license and left me with the meat and had to pay a fine. But I got screwed on all three fronts, license, meat, fine....for doing the right thing by my honest mistake.

If something like that happens again...I guess the cyotes will get fatter and the warden will be none the wiser.

+1 Leadcouncil....take the 5th when it comes to the government. There is NO upside.

 

[CoRoMo]

Did they issue him another hunting permit? Which is SOP in Colorado.

I don't recall that being part of the story. Could have though. I do recall him being fined the $75, so I totally agree, that's basically a slap on the wrist, even if he wasn't issued another permit. I'm not necessarily on his side, I hope to make clear. This was just one of about four total stories that I could tell in this thread. You can refer to a post I made in a very good thread of your own... HERE. It makes me crawl out of my skin when someone has no qualms about violating ethics, regs, and especially laws. Now, I'm no angel, but I just don't want to have any part of it if I can help it, and I can.

But when it comes to accidents and family, I suppose the very best thing I could do FOR my child is to turn him in. With the slap on the wrist that he'd likely receive in our state, that decision would be a little easier. What I would not want to risk is giving my child a criminal record or having his rifle confiscated, over an accident. Not likely, but not impossible, I have to assume.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Nice post Loyalist Dave. I agree with everything.

 

[FTG-05]

quote:

"Ethics in this thread refers to "the moral fitness of a course of action", which is different than the dogmatic adherence to the wording of a law.

Therefore in-and-of-itself, it would not be a violation of ethics for a person to omit reporting an accidental violation of hunting regulations by a child.

LD"

Excellent. This is very good point: Ethics <=> the law. We've seen several examples in this thread alone on top of the examples in the excellent post quoted above.

Good thread.

Thanks,

 

[41magsnub]

I don't trust them. My hunting partner had a really bad experience with a game warden. He had just moved to MT. He went out hunting and shot a nice whitetail buck. He tagged it and threw it in the trunk of his Buick. He did the right thing and stopped at the game check station and opened up his trunk. While waiting he helped the game warden haul an improperly taken animal off the roof of a truck.

Then the warden got to his car, took one look at the tag, and yanked it out of the car. Then he started writing a ticket. The offense? He had slit the date on the tag instead of notched it. Clearly my buddy was trying to do the right thing and he could have driven right past the check station and gotten away with it. He took the ticket to court and the judge threw it out, but he still lost his deer and the court fees.

 

[SPW1]

Then the warden got to his car, took one look at the tag, and yanked it out of the car. Then he started writing a ticket. The offense? He had slit the date on the tag instead of notched it. Clearly my buddy was trying to do the right thing and he could have driven right past the check station and gotten away with it. He took the ticket to court and the judge threw it out, but he still lost his deer and the court fees.

I have seen pretty much that same sort of thing too here in texas. A lot of wardens write tickets for improperly filled out tags or no entry in the "log book". If the right tag is on the animal but the guy forgot to cut the date out or make an entry in his license log I think that is a pretty lame reason to write a ticket. In fairness they sometimes let people off without a ticket too depending on their mood. No I have never personally got a ticket from a warden, I am careful enough that they never have got me on anything. Even so I have had them check me out extremely throughly, and once I even had one make me stand around while he called in my rifles serial number because in his own words "it looked pretty fancy" and "I don't see many like that". He seem to think I might have stolen it or something just because he had never seen one like it. The ironic thing was it was a completely stock remington 673 and I have many far fancier guns. The rib on a rifle threw him I guess. Game wardens in my humble opinion are pretty much like cops. About two thirds are reasonable people, but about one third are big time jerks on a power trip that enjoy pushing people around for no reason and treat everyone like criminals just because they can get away with it as long as they don't cross any legal lines. The fear of getting one of the jerks is why I would be extremely reluctant to involve a warden unless the situation was quite serious.

 

[grubbylabs]

Well I have thought about this for a day or so after having read some of your responses.

Here is what I think.

One, why is your child hunting alone? If your child is under age and very young a parent or close family member who is an experienced hunter should be with them, helping them make good choices. This is a big responsibility for a child and they should not go it alone. Imagine your child making a mistake and shooting a person? How would you live with yourself. It happens every year so don't say it isn't likely.

Second I don't care who you are, you have no business shooting something unless you know for sure what you are shooting. Again this is how people get shot. You deserve to loose the meat and pay a fine. There is a reason they make the fine painful in most area. Besides as said above you should be with your child, and you are responsible for what they do. If you have a antlered only tag of any kind or a antler less tag of any kind you have no business shooting an animal unless you can see its head.

I don't get why parents don't take responsibility for their children, If you take a young child hunting, you need to be there for them to hunt not for you to hunt. regardless of who had the tag, it should be first and foremost about the child.

So if you put your child in a position to shoot the wrong animal then yes they need to face the consequences.

This is a prime example of what is wrong with society, no one is taught to be accountable any more. If you do it wrong own up to it.

 

[SPW1]

This is a prime example of what is wrong with society, no one is taught to be accountable any more. If you do it wrong own up to it.

I think the issue here is a difference in perspective on what is right and wrong and what is deserving of punishment and what is not even if the law is violated. I doubt anyone would call the cops on themselves if they accidentally ran a red light or a stop sign. If it was an accident and you realized the light or stop sign was there just as you were rolling through and yet no one got hurt I bet you would just be glad that nothing serious came of it and that no police officer was sitting right there to ticket you. Hopefully it would also be a reminder to be more careful in the future since it could easily result in something more serious. A lot of us view accidental game violations the same way. Not desirable, something to be corrected, but not exactly the sort of thing to turn someone over to the law for unless they have a really bad and decidedly unsorry attitude about it.

 

[ilbob]

I think the bigger question is can a 13 YO understand there are many gray areas in life that do not have an absolute answer.

Maybe the real answer is you tell the kid you would rat him out, knowing full well that what might actually happen could be different.

I see this kind of thing, especially if unintentional as similar to speeding. People do it all the time. It does not harm anyone. Why involve law enforcement? No good will come of it other than as an attempt at a life lesson. And the lesson learned may be totally different than the one you hoped for.

Some of the answer is going to be dependent on one's knowledge of the way these kind of things are usually handled in the area the incident happened in. If the state treats it like the minor incident that it actually is, then there is more incentive to be forthcoming.

There is also a more practical answer. if the chance of getting caught is pretty high, or the kid is likely to brag about it, rat him out.

 

[jbkebert]

Not desirable, something to be corrected, but not exactly the sort of thing to turn someone over to the law for unless they have a really bad and decidedly unsorry attitude about it.

This is one thing I am trying to teach my kids. If they screw up yes there will be a price to pay. Granted my children are still pretty young and I am right there with them while hunting. This year my son Caleb who is 10 was deer hunting with me in the stand right beside him. He was shooting a .45 cal muzzleloader in which he has practiced alot out to around 75-80 yards or so. I don't load this gun very hot at all given recoil and his smaller frame. A group of does came into and wandered into within 60-65 yards. He asked premission to shoot and I of course granted it. So there I am fixed on a lone fat doe with my bino's waiting the forever and a day (more like 5 seconds) for him to pull the trigger. Gun fires, smoke clears nothing???. How could he miss at that range I wondered. It turned out a lone buck had appeared at 200plus yards away that I did not see. Caleb seeing the buck and I guess thinking a frontstuffer shot the same as his .243 and took the shot.

While everything being legal he had a either sex any season tag. Caleb got his little rear end chewed big time. Now if he had alerted me to the presence of the buck we would of held off and waited for a better shot. The fact that he took it upon himself to make the choice got him in deep with me. He got to miss the rest of deer season. Kids can not possibly know all of the game laws. Heck I teach them and don't know them all. We as parents need to show our children that you follow instructions and the law in life. A simple would be harmless choice could in fact lead to big trouble.

I often describe ethics and morals in HE classes as the person we are when no one else is around. I think far to often people are faced with a choice while in the woods. That trophey buck or elk appears out of range. How many times have shot been taken with that little voice in the back of your saying I think I might be able to get him. If I miss well no ones around to give me any flak about it. Deny it all you want I have eaten tag sandwiches at a high cost. On those hunts I saw NICE animals well beyond my effective range and that thought popped into my head. I can honestly say that I have never given in to the thought mostly because of the values and lessons taught to me by my father.

Covering up for your buddy or your kid does nothing but hurt yourself, your kid, your buddy, your sport. A painful lesson is a lesson remembered.

 

[jim357]

I am not a hunter so maybe my opinion is worth less than the opinion of a hunter. However, there is no way in the world I would report this. My reason is exactly what has been said by leadcounsel. I do not trust the government or anyone who works for the government. I feel that I could handle the learning issue better than anyone else. I do not need anyone else to help. I even feel that I can explain it without telling him of my distrust for government which could backfire into something worse. There is another thread posted here about a child reporting to school that the child was afraid of the guns at home. Most felt that could lead to problems with police and child protective services. In this case one over the top warden could make more problems than would be solved. It is just not worth the chance.

 

[grubbylabs]

In our state a speeding ticket is not a felony neither is running a red light. However killing a big game animal out of season can wind up being a felony if not handled appropriately.

The situation that jbkebert described with his son is a failure to communicate on his part. He should have made sure that he and his son were on the same page. Somehow I think that mistake will not happen again. He seems like a quick learner from what he posted there.

But again we are talking about taking a life here, destroying something with a gun. No one has any business shooting any thing without knowing for sure what they are shooting. If it walked behind a tree wait till it comes out in view again. To many people get caught up in the killing part and don't realize there is more to hunting than killing an animal.

Mistakes like this are why people are shot every year. Who wants to set their child up to live with that for the rest of their lives? Not me.


I know mistakes happen even when you are doing it right, things happen, jbkebert story is a good example of a father who was doing it right and still wound up having a problem. But just because he did his best to prevent a mistake does not mean he should help his child potentially commit a felony.

 

[SPW1]

In our state a speeding ticket is not a felony neither is running a red light. However killing a big game animal out of season can wind up being a felony if not handled appropriately...... I know mistakes happen even when you are doing it right, things happen, jbkebert story is a good example of a father who was doing it right and still wound up having a problem. But just because he did his best to prevent a mistake does not mean he should help his child potentially commit a felony.

Apples to oranges. Nobody was talking about deliberately shooting game out of season. What was being talked about was a kid shooting a doe instead of a buck or visa versa. I don't think that is a "felony" in any state.

But again we are talking about taking a life here, destroying something with a gun. No one has any business shooting any thing without knowing for sure what they are shooting. If it walked behind a tree wait till it comes out in view again. To many people get caught up in the killing part and don't realize there is more to hunting than killing an animal.

Again, the discussion is about minor and accidental game infractions, killing a buck for a doe or the reverse. A dead deer is a dead deer. There is little moral difference between killing a buck or a doe, the only difference is regulatory one. In the past few years much of east texas has gone to a minimum antler spread required on bucks for them to be legal to shoot. Errors on judging that are exactly the same sort of deal, and believe me plenty of people make errors in judging spread while dealing with buck fever. Is that the end of the world? No. Am I or should I turn someone in for something like that if they are not all boasting about it and shooting technically illegal game on purpose? No. The point of government isn't to harass people for an occasional honest mistake, and good friends and neighbors don't take it upon themselves to call the law in over things that aren't that big of a deal anyway. Common sense must be applied, and it isn't common sense to drag the law into it every time someone violates a minor regulation accidentally.

 

[lizziedog1]

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

 

[Ankeny]

If something like that happens again...I guess the coyotes will get fatter and the warden will be none the wiser.

I suppose that is a pretty common attitude. Just be prepared to pay the consequences when you get caught. Abandonment of a big game animal is one thing the courts in Wyoming have shown no tolerance toward. Maximum penalties are the norm.

 

[wankerjake]

Errors on judging that are exactly the same sort of deal, and believe me plenty of people make errors in judging spread while dealing with buck fever. Is that the end of the world? No. Am I or should I turn someone in for something like that if they are not all boasting about it and shooting technically illegal game on purpose? No. The point of government isn't to harass people for an occasional honest mistake, and good friends and neighbors don't take it upon themselves to call the law in over things that aren't that big of a deal anyway. Common sense must be applied, and it isn't common sense to drag the law into it every time someone violates a minor regulation accidentally.

Exactly the way I feel.

Sticking to "my kid": I'm not about to call any outsider in if he accidentally messes up. The key word is "accidental". I'll deal with all the moral and ethical issues involved. That's a parent's job.

If he were to wilfully do wrong, then that right there is a sign that I've been failing in how I've been teaching him. If I thought that such an event were likely, odds are that he wouldn't have been along on a hunting trip, anyway. I only hunt with people whom I can trust.

Yep

 

[Arkansas Paul]

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

I'm pretty sure we aren't talking about evil here. We're talking about an honest mistake. I think everyone here agrees that if someone is intentionally shooting illegal game with no reguard for the law, that they should be turned in. Making a mistake isn't evil. Intentionally doing wrong is. Big difference.

 

[wankerjake]

This is a prime example of what is wrong with society, no one is taught to be accountable any more. If you do it wrong own up to it.

I agree a lot with this statement, but in this situation I don't feel the law needs to be involved. Discipline should probably come from the parent in this situation. That doesn't mean you have to get G&F involved. Owning up to dad and the rest of the hunting party isn't any easier than owning up to a game warden.

On the other hand, I'm not saying I wouldn't under certain circumstances. Like what if this was a second offense? Still an accident but the lesson wasn't learned the first time. I may give G&F a call then to see if they can get the message across. But on a first offense, I doubt it. That's my job to teach it.

 

[CoRoMo]

To those of you who would not turn in your kid...

I understand the idea, I even agree in large as to the principal you are presenting. I think we all are on the same page as far as deliberate violations of hunting laws, versus honest accidents and errors.

I would just like to know which crime you would then choose to commit AFTER the accident occurred. Would you leave the game animal to waste in the field or would you sneak it out and transport the contraband?

At least, both are crimes here, and it isn't too difficult to be caught in the act of either. As much as I agree with not involving the authorities in my personal parenting duties, I don't want to blatantly commit a crime in front of my children and have them think that it is okay.

Your thoughts...