14th Ammendment challenge of 2A Rights vs State law question

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NY'er

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Curiosity calls, so here's a new one for any attorneys or otherwise knowledgeable THR's out there:

Assuming unlimited funds for the legal process & fees etc...

Could a resident or group of residents of one of the more restrictive states,
sue their State in Federal Court under the 14th Ammendment to strike the State's law~
for "denying one's Constitutional Right to equal (self-)protections under the law"?

Has anything like that ever been attempted, or have there been similar suits brought to challenge to other individual State's laws (not 2A)~ in Federal Court??

Thoughts?
 
It would work - so long as you had at least one minority plaintiff whose lack of access to guns was at least somewhat limited by their race.

Proving the latter is actually easy. In the "may issue" states, access to CCW is notoriously racist.

Finding a minority plaintiff with guts is the hard part. I tried for years in California.

If you want to understand why it matters, go look up the legal terms "strict scrutiny" and "rational basis". Or go here for my basic research on this:

http://www.equalccw.com/practicalrace.html

Read the case law, esp. Arlington Heights, Hunter v. Underwood and the Rapard case in which this actually happened to part of the California CCW law.
 
Interesting link~ but I was more specifically referring to the fact someone in State X CAN own and/or carry something that a resident of State Y cannot.

So it wouldn't be racist~ the discrimination would be geographic in nature...... if that makes any sense.
 
Interesting link~ but I was more specifically referring to the fact someone in State X CAN own and/or carry something that a resident of State Y cannot.

That would be a federal question, and to my knowledge there's no federal law that says Texans can carry but Illinoisans can't.

You're better off challenging a state law for disparate impact of their may-issue policy, effectively discriminating against minorities for the right to carry. Anyone got Sharpton's number?
 
"That would be a federal question, and to my knowledge there's no federal law that says Texans can carry but Illinoisans can't."

Right~ but what I'm arguing/ questioning is that if a Texan can, but Illinois law says you cannot, then the Illiniosan is not receiving "equal protection" of his Federal 2A Right.... isn't that a violation of the Illinoisan's 14th Ammendment protection?
 
^^^
Probably not. To the best of my knowledge there's no RKBA in the IL constitution but there is in the TX constitution.

Then there's that pesky 10th amendment which says:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
Which has been interpreted to mean that the states can regulate/restrict/prohibit guns however they wish. There's a whole thread about that very issue here on THR that's still open and was active until a few days ago. Lots of disagreement about what exactly the 10th actually means (which in my opinion is moot anyway since the supremes have pretty much been ignoring it for the better part of the last 200 years).
 
and the second, since it doesn't specify congress only, prohibits the states from infringing.

And around and around we go........
 
and the second, since it doesn't specify congress only, prohibits the states from infringing.

+1

The first amendment states that congress should make no law...since my local community isn't a part of congress does that mean they can? I don't think so.
 
Quote:
and the second, since it doesn't specify congress only, prohibits the states from infringing.

+1

The first amendment states that congress should make no law...since my local community isn't a part of congress does that mean they can? I don't think so.
Because the SCOTUS has incorporated the 1st into the 14th. The same cannot be said for the 2nd.
 
Assuming unlimited funds for the legal process & fees etc...
Could a resident or group of residents of one of the more restrictive states, sue their State in Federal Court under the 14th Ammendment to strike the State's law~ for "denying one's Constitutional Right to equal (self-)protections under the law"?

I will litigate it right down to your last nickel....:)
 
I'll pipe in and say that a state could, and some federal circuits do, say that gun ownership is a collective right, not an individual one. Therefore your rights aren't being infringed upon.

What I mean is, it can depend heavily on how the 2nd amendment is interpreted by the court you're in.
 
ServiceSoon wrote:

What do you mean by incorporated?

Incorporated, in this context, refers to the process by which the Bill of Rights are found to be a limitation on State laws and regulations. The incorporation process involves bootstrapping the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amend as the methodolgy under what is called "substantive due process". Not all elements of the BoR's have been "incorporated" and some have been specifically held not to be "incorporated". The process is more completely and accurately described as "selective incorporation" whereby some, but not all of the BoR's apply to state action.

There is no SCOTUS case law on the 2nd Amend regarding whether it should be "selectively incorporated" ....
 
The 2nd does not have to be incorporated, it stands on its own, prohibiting ALL entities from infringing.

And around and around we go...............
 
There is no SCOTUS case law on the 2nd Amend regarding whether it should be "selectively incorporated"

But, if I am not mistaken, the incorporation doctrine is based upon a theory that would not allow the incorporation/federalization of a personal right which precedes government such as the personal RKBA for personal defense. The way I am thinking of it, either the 2nd would have to be incorporated as a political right i.e. related to militia, or else the incorporation doctrine would have to be dropped.
 
But, if I am not mistaken, the incorporation doctrine is based upon a theory that would not allow the incorporation/federalization of a personal right which precedes government such as the personal RKBA for personal defense.

Close, but not quite. The issue involves what SCOTUS calls a "fundamental rights analysis". A fundamental rights analysis will look at this:

"...if it is so deeply embedded in the history, tradition and culture of this nation that it should be deemed fundamental as being an attribute of our free society".
 
if it is so deeply embedded in the history, tradition and culture of this nation that it should be deemed fundamental as being an attribute of our free society

I don't remember what cases I've read, but that is not what I remember reading. Does it make sense to you to say that we will only incorporate the parts of the USBOR which are "fundamental attributes of our free society"? Isn't the whole USBOR "fundamental attributes of our free society[or rather free government]"?

I seem to remember reading something to the effect that a limited federal government cannot have jurisdiction over "fundamental attributes of our free society", that their jurisdiction cannot extend to fundamental rights which precede government. That seems like a sound foundation for an incorporation doctrine i.e. the idea that we can't federalize our rights without turning the federal government into a national government.
 
Obviously incorrect...
legaleagle 45, I think I know what is causing our communication problem.
You are working from what we are currently doing, whereas (d'ya like that?) I am working as if we were actually following the constitution as written, with original intent and meaning.
My apologies.
 
The commonwealth of Massachusetts is free to regulate the procedure of its courts in accordance with its own conception of policy and fairness, unless in so doing it offends some principle of justice so rooted in the traditions and conscience of our people as to be ranked as fundamental.

SNYDER v. COM. OF MASS., 291 U.S. 97 (1934); RENO v. FLORES, 507 U.S. 292 (1993).

Isn't the whole USBOR "fundamental attributes of our free society[or rather free government]"?

An example of one that isn't is the right to a jury trial in civil cases where the amount in controversy exceeds $20.
 
legaleagle 45, I think I know what is causing our communication problem. You are working from what we are currently doing, whereas (d'ya like that?) I am working as if we were actually following the constitution as written, with original intent and meaning.

Actually, I was being a smart a@@:) What I was going to point out was the 2nd, whatever it protects, is not a limitation on private action. Thus, it is not a violation of the 2nd if your mom won't let Santa bring you one of them red ryder BB guns because she feels you will shoot your eye out with it. General rule of thumb:

Moms are not limited by the BoR's, they can and do deprive of of liberty without due process of law, can require you to go to church, can wash your mouth out with soap, can conduct unreasonable searches of your room without a warrant... but nonetheless, I still love my mom.

Now to be serious... I think the original intent was not to make the BoR's applicable to the states, but I believe the 14th was intended as a whole cloth incorporation, notwithstanding the Slaughterhouse cases which slaughtered the 14th amend.
 
An example of one that isn't is the right to a jury trial in civil cases where the amount in controversy exceeds $20.

With all due respect, I do not believe that the SCOTUS came up with selective incorporation over that! I guess I'll have to read up on this stuff again and try to see what cases my view is based upon.


I believe the 14th was intended as a whole cloth incorporation, notwithstanding the Slaughterhouse cases which slaughtered the 14th amend.

Ah ... Slaughterhouse cases ... which said that the 14th only applied to rights of US Citizenship as opposed to rights of State Citizenship. That makes sense to me. And if the 14th was intended as a whole cloth incorporation, that intent failed when the 14th failed.

The way I am thinking of it, it starts with the reconstruction congress and their "civil rights bill", which President Johnson vetoed for being an attempt to subvert our frame of government ... and then it was passed over his veto but they really needed an amendment to have credibility, and so the 14th was an attempt to make the civil rights bill an amendment to the US Constitution ... which the States rejected as being an attempt to subvert our frame of government ... and then when the US Constitution was modified by force, the SCOTUS used selective incorporation to keep the 14th from subverting our frame of government. I think I see a pattern.
 
Hugh, for God's sake...President Johnson was 1960s. 14th Amendment was 1860s. You're a hundred years off right there.

OK, since nobody seems to want to read my full exposition on the subject (link above), let me lay out what happened.

The story starts in 1833 with Barron v. Baltimore. Mr. Barron claimed (apparently correctly) that the city had screwed up his boat docks, and sued for an "unfair taking" under the Bill Of Rights. The US Supreme Court ruled that the BOR applied only to the Federal gov't, not the states. Barron got screwed. So did a hell of a lot of other people over the years, including us gunnies. Barron is STILL a problem for us, as we'll see.

Next step is the Dred Scott case, 1856. The US Supreme Court said that racist laws were OK in the US because we had always been a racist nation. Actually true, if immoral as hell. The way they phrased the matter was important: they claimed that blacks lacked the "privileges and immunities of US citizenship", and used the phrase "privileges and immunities" over 30 times. They exhaustively defined the term:

For if they [(blacks)] were so received, and entitled to the privileges and immunities of citizens, it would exempt them [(blacks)] from the operation of the special laws and from the police regulations which they considered to be necessary for their own safety. It would give to persons of the negro race, who were recognized as citizens in any one State of the Union, the right to enter every other State whenever they pleased, singly or in companies, without pass or passport, and without obstruction, to sojourn there as long as they pleased, to go where they pleased at every hour of the day or night without molestation, unless they committed some violation of law for which a white man would be punished; and it would give them the full liberty of speech in public and in private upon all subjects upon which its own citizens might speak; to hold public meetings upon political affairs, and to keep and carry arms wherever they went.

As you can see, the "privileges and immunities of US citizenship" defined in 1856 are basically "the Bill Of Rights and then some" (note a "right to travel without pass or passport") or possibly "the traditional rights of free Englishmen". Whatever - it includes the RKBA in it's most radical form: the right travel armed "in companies".

In the US Civil War of 1861-65, the huge stacks of dead bodies and the South's defeat did NOT overturn the core holding of Dredd Scott: that racist laws were OK. Post-war, Southern states and localities enacted "black codes" to strip blacks of all manner of civil rights, the right to arms being THE most common.

In 1868, Ohio Congressman John Bingham wrote and rammed through the 14th Amendment. The opening clauses were the most important:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Let's review it step by step:

1) Blacks are now citizens.

2) DRED SCOTT IS OVERTURNED. The "privileges and immunities" language is taken right out of that case and turned on it's head. The only way anybody can overturn a US Supreme Court constitutional decision is by amending the constitution.

3) We then have "due process" and "equal protection" sections tacked on too but the 14th would work just fine with just Dred Scott overturned via the privileges and immunities clause.

In ALL subsequent decisions right down to the present, the US Supreme Court has committed a fraud. They have claimed not to know what "privileges and immunities" are and have denied that they're connected to civil rights.

In cases between 1872 and 1900, the Supreme Court completely gutted the 14th Amendment, rendering it utterly worthless.

In 1907, the court had it's nose rubbed in how completely disgusting state-level "justice systems" had become in the only criminal trial ever heard by the Supreme Court: Shipp. I believe this case at least influenced what happened next:

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/shipp.html

Across the 20th Century, the Supremes re-discovered the "due process" and "equal protection" clauses of the 14th, and brought them back from the dead.

Via the due process clause, the court found various civil rights to be "fundamental to due process" and therefore "selectively incorporated" one at a time against state interference, across literally generations. First Amendment free speech came first, followed by most of the courtroom protections (save one) and across most of the rest of the Bill Of Rights.

So far only TWO personal civil rights mentioned in the BOR haven't been selectively incorporated:

* Right to arms under the 2nd.

* Right to a grand jury indictment under the 5th.

(Wait...add another, "quartering of troops" under the 3rd but that's a non-issue...)

So that's where we stand.

A number of Supreme Court justices across the 20th century and possibly on today's court have argued, sometimes passionately, against the fraud in ignoring what "privileges and immunities" are. The P&I clause should have done TOTAL incorporation of the Bill Of Rights against the states at one fell swoop but we never had five at once with the moral fiber to say so.

John Bingham wasn't shy or misleading about what he was up to: he spoke fervently about overturning Dred Scott and allowing blacks to arm themselves against criminals both in government and private, including the pro-Klan just beginning to develop a fashion sense running to white bedsheets with eye-holes.

John Bingham led a civil rights movement in the 1850s/60s that tried to accomplish far more than Dr. King and his supporters 100 years later. Thanks to corrupt judges his name is all but forgotten.
 
Could a resident or group of residents of one of the more restrictive states,
sue their State in Federal Court under the 14th Ammendment to strike the State's law~
for "denying one's Constitutional Right to equal (self-)protections under the law"?

I had a long thing written out, but I scrapped it. We may be getting ahead of ourselves. A state has the right to limit rights or freedoms so long as those limitations do not infringe, or limit, someone's federal constitutional rights. Therefore, until the US supreme Court rules on whether the 2nd amendment is a collective right or an individual right, the states can limit an individuals right to own a gun quite a bit. (see above post - he beat me to it)

Most of the federal circuits that have ruled on the issue hold that it is a collective right. Thus the states in those circuits can limit gun ownership significantly. However, the 5th Circuit (Texas, LA. and Mississippi) and the DC circuit have ruled that the 2nd is an individual right, meaning that those states can only reasonably limit an individuals right to own a firearm (say a felon, etc).

The DC Circuit case might soon be reviewed by the USSC, so let's see.

Because of this, at the moment, its hard to say that there can really be any geographical discrimination, (unless you're in TX, LA or MS).

I don't know if any of that makes sense.
 
It's also interesting to note that something like 44 out of the 50 states have in their legislative code or statutes that the right to bear arms is an individual right.
 
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