158gr bullet in a 38 and 357 case

[ArchAngelCD]

As some of you know I've been working on a FBI load replica. Unfortunately there is no data for a .38 Special +P round using a lead bullet available. I've been trying to extrapolate the data using .38 Special data and .38 Special data.

I'm convinced HS-6 is the powder to use.
Hodgdon has data for a 158gr LSWC bullet and HS-6 for both the .38 Special and the .357 Magnum.

Hodgdon lists this data:
.38 Special
HS-6 .358" 1.475" 5.7gr 928 fps 13,700 CUP 6.3gr 1010 fps 16,200 CUP

.357 Magnum
HS-6 .358" 1.610" 6.0gr 990 fps 12,900 CUP 7.0gr 1106 fps 15,500 CUP

Now for the important question.... How much more pressure will I develop if I use a 7.0gr charge of HS-6 in a .38 Special case instead of the .357 Magnum case? I'm guessing it will be close to the 20,000 psi limit of a .38 Special +P but it might also be over that limit. Surely I can charge more than 6.3gr HS-6 since that charge in a .38 Special case doesn't come close to the +P limits just as a charge of 7.0gr HS-6 doesn't exceed .38 Special pressures in a .357 Magnum case let alone +P limits.

I'll be testing some loads this weekend if the weather cooperated. I'll try and run them over a Chrono and see what I get. I have charged 6.3gr, 6.5gr, 6.6gr, 6.8gr and 7.0gr HS-6 under a 158gr LSWC bullet. I will test them in my M640 since it's a .357 Magnum just for a safety factor.

Opinions please....

 

[ReloaderFred]

The Lyman 48th Edition Reloading Handbook list several +p .38 Special loads with 155 and 160 grain lead bullets. Unfortunately, they don't list HS-6, but they do list Bullseye, Win. 231, Unique and Universal Clays.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Fred,
I have several Lee books, a cast bullet book and even the Ken Water's book and either they don't list lead bullets for the .38 Special +P or they don't list the powders I want to use. They all list Bullseye and Unique but not much else.

Would you mind telling me what the +P charges are for W231 and Clays and the 160gr bullet from your Lyman 48? Do they list pressures?
Thanks...

 

[Seafarer12]

Speer lists 38+p 158 gr lead with HS-6.
Min 6.3gr -914 fps
Max 6.7gr -971 fps

 

[armoredman]

My Loadbook for 38Spl lists a bunch of specific +P loads. Here's the one you want.
Hodgdon HS-6 158-160gr +P is as follows;
7.3 grains, (max load, no charge reduction), 995 FPS, 19200 CUP.

 

[fireflyfather]

It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway: When you are pushing the envelope this far, WATCH FOR PRESSURE SIGNS and work up in stages. (I'm sure you know this, but saying it anyway).

Seating depth will probably be an issue here, too. Also, if the bullet you are using is a HP with a large cavity, that may alter the published data, increasing pressure for the same OAL. Those book loads are probably tested with SWC, RNFP, or RNL loads, not SWCHP.

If you work up and watch carefully, you should be ok, but those loads are very hot.

 

[jfh]

"...If you work up and watch carefully, you should be ok, but those loads are very hot."​

Heh--you think those loads are hot, you ought to check out the SR-4756 threads over in the S&W reloading forum. They're from the Speer #8 manual. One guy shooting them gets about 1100 fps from his two-inch steel Rossi 357.

Fortunately, ArchAngelCD is cautious. Unfortunately, pressure signs do no good at this level, unless one has developed an intimate sense of reading overpressure signs in one particular firearm. And, if you have, then that firearm may not be much good, anymore...at least without gunsmithing.

Jim H.

 

[Seafarer12]

Heh--you think those loads are hot, you ought to check out the SR-4756 threads over in the S&W reloading forum. They're from the Speer #8 manual. One guy shooting them gets about 1100 fps from his two-inch steel Rossi 357.

I would call that pretty hot.

 

[campbell]

Would you mind telling me what the +P charges are for W231 and Clays and the 160gr bullet from your Lyman 48? Do they list pressures?

I don't see a +p for Clays in the Lyman 48, but with W231 there's +p for a 155 and a 160 grain bullet, both linotype. Scroll down past the gibberish here to see the bullet profiles, moulds 358156 and 358311. 4'' test barrel, Federal cases, CCI 500 primers. There's also standard pressure HS-6 data in the Lyman book for those bullets.

155 grain linotype: 1.460'' OAL

5.0 grains W231
934 fps
18,000 C.U.P.

6.7 grains HS-6
894 fps
16,600 C.U.P.

160 grain linotype: 1.550'' OAL

5.2 grains W231
956 fps
18,500 C.U.P.

6.7 grains HS-6
901 fps
16,200 C.U.P.

 

[Steve C]

For the most part I've found Hodgdon's velocity data to not be applicable for revolvers with 4" barrels as their test data usually comes from a 10" non vented test barrel.

Using W231 with a maximum +P load of 4.7grs per Winchesters data, not the current cowboy loads Hodgdon lists, with Winchester primers and Winchester cases I get a chrono'd velocity of 910 fps using Speer 158gr LSWCHP's from my 4" M66. A Unique load of 5.2grs duplicates this with the same components. Both these loads just happen to match Winchester factory 158gr ballistic data on the web.

I've tried HS6 in the .38 spl along with other pistol cartridges and abandoned its use except with 147gr 9mm loads where I recently discovered it shines. I'd bought 2 lbs of it at a 1/2 price sale maybe 20 years ago and finally just used up the first bottle.

 

[ReloaderFred]

ArchAngelCD,

I don't usually recommend data, but since this is directly out of the Lyman 48th Edition. It's not mine.

155 gr. # 358156 Linotype bullet:

4.4 gr. Bullseye gives 915 fps @ 18,100 CUP

5.0 gr. Win. 231 gives 934 fps @ 18,000 CUP

5.4 gr. Unique gives 954 fps @ 18,000 CUP

5.1 gr. Universal Clays gives 931 fps @ 17,400 CUP

With the 160 grain # 358311 linotype bullet:

4.1 gr. of Bullseye gives 936 fps @ 18,300 CUP

5.2 gr. of Win. 231 gives 956 fps @ 18,500 CUP

5.3 gr. of Unique gives 982 fps @ 18,500 CUP

These were obtained with an Universal receiver and 4" barrel.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Quoheleth]

FWIW, I hot-rodded a handful of .38s with 158 grain lead with 4.6 gr of Bullseye. Shot it out of my GP100, so I wasn't worried about the gun so much, but I did chuck the brass, just to be safe.

Don't ask. :banghead: Am still scrubbing lead a week later.

The closer you get to 1000fps with lead, the more likely you get leading. Might want to consider a harder lead bullet, like missouri bullet's .357 action with a higher BRI# to handle the pressure. They are not HPs, but they will also handle 1200 fps w/out leading (should have used those instead of his standard .38 special bullet).

Q

 

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I have shot allot of 158 gr LSWC bullet from a 38 Special with LIL'GUN.

The Hodgdon max load for the 357 mag 158 gr. XTP JHP is 18 gr. LIL'GUN for 1577 fps, 10" barrel, 25.8kcup

A) Colt Police Positive 38 Special 4" barrel:
1) 18 gr. LIL'GUN 158 gr. XTP 1.59", WSPM, 1173 fps measured
2) 23.5 gr. LIL'GUN 158 gr. XTP 1.59", WSPM, 1155 fps measured

B) "Colt DA 38" on barrel of 1892 Colt Army has 38 special chamber cylinder
with no throat:
1) 158 gr. lead SWC, 357 mag brass, 22 gr. LIL'GUN, WSPM, 1.56" pierces
primer
2) 158 gr. lead SWC, 357 mag brass 25.2 gr. LIL'GUN, CCI450 small magnum
rifle primer, 1.55", compressed powder, no case head expansion, primer
still round corners
3) 158 gr. LSWC 1.59", CCI 400 small rifle primer, 26 gr. LIL'GUN ok in Pol
Pos, ok in 1892 but shorter and tiny primer pierce due to very hard
hammer strike


I wrote Hodgdon and asked why the do not list a 158 gr LSWC hard cast load for 357 mag and LIL'GUN, and they wrote back that it was becuase it melts the base of the bullet. I have not had any problems.

What does it all mean?
I carry 18 gr LIL'GUN 158 gr LSWC or XTP in a 38 special Police Positive with an inch cut off the butt.
If someone can find a better load, I would like to know about it.

 

[joneb]

I have loaded 7.5gr of HS-6 behind 158gr LSWC and LRNFP .358 dia w/ small pistol primers in .357 mag. with very good accuracy in a Ruger Sec. Six 2.75" barrel. Then I used the same load with Silver State bullets from Sportsmans Warehouse these .3574" ish LSWC did not shoot well for me

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Originally Posted By: armoredman
My Loadbook for 38Spl lists a bunch of specific +P loads. Here's the one you want.
Hodgdon HS-6 158-160gr +P is as follows;
7.3 grains, (max load, no charge reduction), 995 FPS, 19200 CUP.

Can you please specify which manual that data was taken from? Also, are you sure that's for a Lead bullet and not a Jacketed one?

Thank you...

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I appreciate all the input and data posted so far. Thank you all...

BUT:
Clark,
I'm not looking to blow up my gun or myself. I specifically asked about a .38 Special load using HS-6, not a light to heavy .357 Magnum round! Seriously man, how can you in good conscience suggest those charges of Lil'Gun disclaimer or not? 22.0 to 25.2gr of Lil'Gun with rifle primers or Magnum rifle primers is more like a light 454 Casull recipe, not a .38 Special +P recipe using a lead bullet.

A) Colt Police Positive 38 Special 4" barrel:
1) 18 gr. LIL'GUN 158 gr. XTP 1.59", WSPM, 1173 fps measured
2) 23.5 gr. LIL'GUN 158 gr. XTP 1.59", WSPM, 1155 fps measured

B)
2) 158 gr. lead SWC, 357 mag brass 25.2 gr. LIL'GUN, CCI450 small magnum
rifle primer, 1.55", compressed powder, no case head expansion, primer
still round corners

You Can Not Be Serious.... wow

 

[Clark]

It is weird.
More powder, more recoil, more noise, less velocity.
Who'd a thunk it?

 

[rg1]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
Here's some data from 1999 Shooting Times Feb issue. Some of the data is above some published maximums in reloading manuals.
Bull-X 158gr. SWC
SW 6" 686 Taurus M85 2"
Red Dot 3.9-------861 fps 787fps
Unique 4.0--------822 675
Unique 5.0*-------871 750
W231 3.8---------643 606
W231 5.9*--------1042 990
Loads with* are above some published data. Measured 12 ft in front of muzzle.

 

[tblt]

I like the 158 in my 357 and a 110 or 125 in my 38.I like to keep the speed up there.I get 1000 fps with my 110 gr 38 and 1500 fps with the 158 357

 

[jfh]

a couple of observations here:

1. rg1, the ST's data from 1999 does look fairly realistic, at least in the sense it was generated before the latest downgrading of SAAMI specification for 38 Special and 357 Magnum.

For example, Speer's 38Spl PDF data for the 135-gr GDSB bullet takes Unique out to 5.2 grains. When I tested it, I found low velocities at 2", so I dropped it from further testing (i.e., just like in the ST data)

2. tbit: you bring up the eternal low weight / high velocity=expansion versus the high(er) weight / lower velocity= penetration discussion.

I think this issue is being tackled mostly with better bullet technology--e.g., the development of bullets like the Gold Dot Short Barrel series. and by tweaking the manufacture's powders.

The second element to this is the type of perceived recoil by the shooter. It appears that many people (not just hardcore shooters / gunnies) perceive the sharp / fast recoil of a lower weight / high velocity round as being more unpleasant than the higher weight / lower velocity round.

Combining the benefits of both "sides" in this discussion is probably what has made the Speer 38+P 135-gr factory round so popular.

But then, we factor in other issues, like the need for deeper penetration when people wear more clothes, like down jackets in winter, or when our personal feelings say "deeper is better" and around we go again.

I suspect HS-6 is potentially a great powder for short barrels, and probably in 38 Special. It sounds like ArchAngelCD should know more shortly.

Jim H.

 

[zxcvbob]

According to Quickload, 7.0 grains of HS-6 with a 158 grain lead bullet will give just slightly under 20000 psi if you can keep the seating depth down to .325 inches. At .35 inches, the pressure is up to 21200. Hope this helps.

(4.5 grains of Bullseye also looks like a winner)

 

[ArchAngelCD]

zxcvbob,
Yes, that helps a lot. I was intending upon using 7.0gr HS-6 as the MAX charge for a 158gr LSWC/HP bullet. Knowing it's ~ the old .38 Special +P SAAMI spec of 20,000 PSI makes me happy. As soon as I can Chrono the rounds I'll know if I have to go all the way up to 7.0gr of HS-6. I'm looking for 900 fps from a 2" barrel since that's probably the best velocity to get expansion and penetration with a 158gr LSWC/HP bullet. If I can get 900 fps with a lower charge I'll use the lower charge as long as I can also get good accuracy.

 

[zxcvbob]

Good luck. (you'll be doing really good to get 850 fps with a 2" barrel)

 

[armoredman]

ArchAngelCD, it called a Loadbook, made for 38 Spl, with collected info from the various companies. I believe it was for lead bullets - at work, don't have it in front of me. Good little book, Midway carries them, too.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Thanks armoredman, I have the same book but forgot to look at it for some reason. I checked all the other books I have but forgot about that book... Thanks again!

zxcvbob,
I know 900 fps is very ambitious. If you notice, I said I was looking to get 900 fps but I know it will be VERY hard to do so... Hey, you have to set a goal even if it is a lofty goal. LOL