158gr bullet in a 38 and 357 case

[336A]

A powder that quiclky comes to my mind that would allow you to reach your goal is SR 4756, and that is the starting load in the infamous Speer #8. However I'm not keen on this powder and charge weight. The charge it would take to get that bullet at 900 FPS or above from a 2" revolver IMHO is going to be outside of 20,000 PSI. I know of several folks who use this powder and the starting charge as listed in the Speer #8 under a 158gr SWC. In S&W .38 SPL 4" K frames they get an avg of 1200 FPS.

However they use it at they're own risk and are content in doing so, it is not my place to scrutinize them or their load and I won't. For my .38 SPL +P loads however I stay within the 20,000 PSI levels. I enjoy my guns and my anatomy to much to wander out of that pressure range. My "FBI" load equivalent that I use to practice with is 5.3gr of Unique under the Hornady SWCHP. This is a wonderfully accurate and powerful .38SPL +P load in my S&W M10. I have not yet shot this load in my S&W M60 no dash, but plan to as soon as the weather allows. The beauty of this load is it is still under the max suggested 5.4gr charge which has been time proven for a lot of years now. I imagine that my reloads will get me at 850 FPS or close enough that the difference is academic at best when shot out of a snubby. 850 FPS is a more realistic (and attainable) goal to reach with a 158gr bullet from a snubby, and it will still be within safe pressures. I hope this helps, good luck in your endeavor and be safe.

 

[hoptob]

One guy shooting them gets about 1100 fps from his two-inch steel Rossi 357.

In S&W .38 SPL 4" K frames they get an avg of 1200 FPS.

Here is from another knucklehead who did same Yesterday I chronographed 158 gr. JHP/8.5 gr. SR4756 38spl load from M640 and SP101 and got averages of 1143 and 1144 fps respectively. This is MORE velocity than Remington 158 gr. SJHP 357 magnum load produced in the same guns. From 4" GP100 this load produced 1242 fps. Link.

Don't know what kind of pressure this load generates. AFAIK talking about pressures without benefit of a pressure gauge is no better than talking about velocity without chronograph. Reliance on manuals can be misleading. To give you an example - Speer #8 gives 1000 fps from 2" revolver for this load; in reality I got 15% more...

Look forward to see velocity of your HS-6 load, Arch. For use in 442/642 I, too, am looking to tame my load down to about 900 fps. As it is, the gun does much better with this load than the shooter.

Mike

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Mike, (hoptob)
I will be testing these HS-6 loads in a M640-1 (.357 Magnum) for safety but the intent is to shoot them from a M638. (.38 Special) I'll definitely post the results as soon as the weather breaks here. It won't be until at least the middle to end of the week according to the weather reports.

 

[grendelbane]

I find it amusing how favorite powders change with regions. I have never tried SR4756, simply because I have never seen any around here.

I enjoy seeing people working with the .38 Spl, as it has great potential in a strong gun. I don't do too much with it myself, since my time is limited.

Back in the day I fired a lot of Unique loads in .38 Spl, using a load that was a few tenths under the then maximum. Now, that old load is over the new maximum. Guns have gotten weaker over the years, I guess, I know that I have.

 

[ReloaderFred]

SR 4756 is a great powder. I've been using it in .38 loads since the early 60's. I still have part a 12 pound keg that I'm working on. And yes, powder used to come in 12 pound kegs. I also have one of 700X that I'm working on.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[jfh]

Thanks for the data, Mike. As I may have mentioned earlier, I have SR-4756 loads running from 4.8 gr. out to 8.4 gr. in 38 Special cases, all set to go--but I'll shoot them in my 640, thank you very much. And in my 3" M60, and in my 686P--once.

Meanwhile, I know you have read the S&W / 4756 threads--do you recall this particular post? I've reread that several times--and I consider the info to be reliable. IOW, you were up there in pressure quite a bit.


ReloaderFred: Well? Well? Well?

How high have you gone, and with what?

After my latest "FBI-load / subjective recoil" evaluations, I'm homing in more and more on SR-4756. But I am also very curious about True Blue and Silhouette.

Jim H.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Jim,
If you don't stop talking about True Blue and Silhouette you are going to cost me even more money when I buy a lb. of each!! LOL

 

[jfh]

ArchangelCD: Well, don't buy True Blue and Silhouette just yet. Buy some SR-4756 and get in the line at the chrono. And, don't forget that WSF is right next to SR-4756 on some burn rate charts....

As soon as the weather breaks, there ought to be a flood of data, I suspect.

I have the FBI-type loads in development sets all done in V.3N37, Silhouette, True Blue, and WSF--as well as possible 357-lite translations--all ready to get some initial range shooting done. As for the chrono--well, we are to get 6" to 8" of snow, starting about 6:00 this morning....

Jim H.

 

[ReloaderFred]

jfh,

It's been my personal policy over the years to not generally give data on the forums, since it's so easy to commit a typo, etc. I prefer to direct folks to the sources for known data and let them experiment with them and find what works best for them. I just wouldn't feel right if someone used some data I gave out and ended up injuring themselves or damaging their equipment. That's just me and how I feel about it. I know you've seen data that's pretty off the wall posted by some, but you won't see it from me... I did quote some data from the Lyman 48th Edition Reloading Handbook earlier in this thread, but only because I was specifically asked for it.

Suffice it to say that I have experimented some with SR 4756 and have found it to have some pretty good uses in .38 Special, 9 x 19 and .45 acp.

As for the mention of True Blue and Silhouette, I'll just say that I've found True Blue to be very dirty, especially when used with cast bullets. Silhouette is the same powder as the old Winchester Action Pistol (WAP), and the data for WAP is interchangeable with Silhouette.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[hoptob]

I'll shoot them in my 640, thank you very much

I won't blame you, Jim

I remember Mach's write-up well. In fact after reading it, I contacted Hodgdon and asked if they still offer pressure testing service. Their response was to the effect of "what cave did you come out of"? Just kidding, they put it more politely "no Sir, we no longer do it" but the tone was telling Mach's post is expertly written and I too have no reasons to doubt his sources. Nor do I disagree with his notion that pressure of Speer #8 loads is likely exceeding current SAAMI 38spl limit by wide margin. Is that a bad thing in and by itself could be subject for a completely different conversation.

Good thing though is that in a way it's a mute point. Rate limiting factor with this round is not the gun but the shooter. Very few people can shoot 158 gr. slugs at 1100 fps from a 16 oz gun rapidly. I for one can't, which makes this round useless for SD purposes in 442. When it's tamed down to 900 fps (which will likely take around 7 gr. 4756) the pressure surely won't be a problem. I did some preliminary testing in 38spl brass with 158 gr. JHP in 6.5 - 9.5 gr. of 4756 range and primers don't even look flat at 7.0 gr. At 9.5 gr. they do look pretty much beatten up though And, no, I did not shoot 9.5 gr. load in 442

Mike

 

[hoptob]

Fred,

I respect your opinion and have seen many people doing same in the forums. The problem is that it is difficult to share experiences in reloading if one does not mention actual loads. That's the reason why I and some other people choose to post their numbers. I think there is always a risk in sharing knowledge but there is also a benefit. At the end it's individual's decision how he/she chooses to deal with this risk and - again - I have full respect to yours.

Mike

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I really wanted to get out today and test those HS-6 rounds but it's raining way too hard. It's supposed to rain for the next few days here!!

Like I mentioned, I have SWC and SWC/HP rounds made up with HS-6 and the charges are 6.3gr, 6.5gr, 6.6gr, 6.8gr and 7.0gr. I have a feeling the 7.0gr rounds will be too hot to be called .38 Special +P but I hope the 6.8gr rounds will be the ones that I'll settle on. Time will only tell.

BTW, I have 158gr LSWC bullets from Lazer Cast and Better Bullets. The 158gr LSWC/HP bullets are from Hornady and Speer. I think the next set of tests will be done with the Speer bullets and Roger's Better Bullets. The current batch are Laser Cast and Hornady.

As a side note I also have some 180gr .357 Magnum rounds made up with W296, Lil'Gun and 2400 I want to pass over the Chrono.