170 gr Jacketed FP bullets in Garand and/or M1A?

[gbw]

Basically standard .30-30 bullets, I have a bunch from long ago.

Has anyone tried these in either the Garand (.30-06) or Springfield M1A standard version (.308) rifle? I have BL-C(2) powder.

Any feeding or accuracy or other problems?

Thanks, gbw

 

[Charlie98]

I don't see why they wouldn't work... they use the same basic data as any similar weight .30 bullet. I probably wouldn't drive them to 2800fps... they are not made for that velocity, typically.

 

[someguy2800]

If they feed there should be no issues.

 

[gbw]

Gonna try it in both guns, as Mr. C98 suggests at slightly reduced loading.

I’ll update results incl velocity readings.

 

[Gun-Reck]

Well...

At least for the M1 rifle, you could remove the gas cylinder lock screw, and run it manually.

 

[nettlle]

No need to remove anything to convert a M1A to single shot. Just close the gas valve with a screwdriver.

 

[hps1]

The 170 grain bullet will not be a problem (other than possible feed problems if flat point...suspect round nose would feed OK but DNK). The GI M72 Match ammo was loaded w/173 gr. bullets @ 2640 fps and we fired lots of them through many Garands w/o any issues.
I used 46 gr. H4895 behind 150 or 168 gr. Sierra Match Kings in a couple of Garands for years. Did load some Ball C for bolt guns, but never tried it in the Garand.
What you have to worry about in the Garand is high port pressure bending op rod. Looking at the powder burn rate chart shows Ball C as being slower powder than 4895, which would probably run a bit higher at the port than H4895.

Regards,
hps

 

[Jeremy2171]

The 170 grain bullet will not be a problem (other than possible feed problems if flat point...suspect round nose would feed OK but DNK). The GI M72 Match ammo was loaded w/173 gr. bullets @ 2640 fps and we fired lots of them through many Garands w/o any issues.
I used 46 gr. H4895 behind 150 or 168 gr. Sierra Match Kings in a couple of Garands for years. Did load some Ball C for bolt guns, but never tried it in the Garand.
What you have to worry about in the Garand is high port pressure bending op rod. Looking at the powder burn rate chart shows Ball C as being slower powder than 4895, which would probably run a bit higher at the port than H4895.

Regards,
hps

Port pressure doesn't bend oprods...lack of lubrication does.

 

[hps1]

Port pressure doesn't bend oprods...lack of lubrication does.

I was issued my first M1 Garand in 1954, shot them in competition on an army AMU and later as a civilian for more than 25 years. We shot the Garand dry (completely unlubed) in harsh desert conditions where lubrication would have cause stoppages due to accumulation of sand/dust in any lube present and lubed under normal weather conditions.

Have fired untold thousands of rounds of both M72 Match w/173 gr bullets loaded to 2640 fps, M2 Ball w/150 gr. bullets @ 2,805 ft/s and an equal or greater number of rounds of handloaded ammo using 168 to 175 gr Sierra Match Kings in numerous M1's. Never bent an op rod with either GI issue or handloads, lubed or dry.

It has been long accepted knowledge that "medium-burning rate" powders are recommended for loading Garand ammunition as slower burning powders could increase port pressure and result in bent or damaged op-rods. IMR 4895 being the original powder used in M2 ball and the most commonly used powder by competitive shooters back in the day.
Here's just a couple of references:




Excellent article on the M1 here (Emphasis added):

Modern commercial ammunition typically produces higher velocities and pressures since it is hunting ammunition more often than not. There is very little “range ammo” out there as far as 30-06 goes. The M1 Garand will cycle and shoot this more modern ammunition but the result is the operating rod will be traveling at a faster speed than it is intended for. The combination of speed and energy delivered by these commercial loads will result in the breaking or warping of the operating rod or much worse. This puts a beloved piece of history and nostalgia out of commission in a hurry.

TFB Armorer’s Bench: M1 Garand Gas System and Ammunition Solutions

The result? Their piece of nostalgia and history ends up damaged or broken. All of that being said let's dive right into the M1 Garand gas system

www.thefirearmblog.com

Regards,
hps

 

[Show Me]

Port pressure doesn't bend oprods...lack of lubrication do

Anyone else not agree

 

[nettlle]

Hornady dedicates a section of their reloading manual to service rifles to avoid this problem. Sierra's 6th edition has a nice little write up on reloading M1'S and M1A's too hot. M1's are more prone to bending operating rods than M1A's. Powders that are too slow can bend operating rods. Maybe you can reload them the same as any other rifle and things will work out fine. But my M14 wasn't cheap and parts for M1"s and M14's are expensive. I do research before working up reloads for my M14.

 

[Show Me]

Hornady dedicates a section of their reloading manual to service rifles to avoid this problem. Sierra's 6th edition has a nice little write up on reloading M1'S and M1A's too hot. M1's are more prone to bending operating rods than M1A's. Powders that are too slow can bend operating rods. Maybe you can reload them the same as any other rifle and things will work out fine. But my M14 wasn't cheap and parts for M1"s and M14's are expensive. I do research before working up reloads for my M14.

Hornady book and hodgdon has all the info you need for Garands and M14. You know because you read.

 

[Jeremy2171]

It has been long accepted knowledge that "medium-burning rate" powders are recommended for loading Garand ammunition as slower burning powders could increase port pressure and result in bent or damaged op-rods. IMR 4895 being the original powder used in M2 ball and the most commonly used powder by competitive shooters back in the day.

4895 didn't exist when M2 was created. 4895 wasn't used until ~ 1944 or so. IMR 1185 was the primary powder along with several other types....but not 4895 initially... so THAT old wives tale needs to be squashed

M2 ball has been loaded with a variety of slow and fast powders. Commercial ammo delivers similar port pressures as milsurp ammo so it's really not a concern.

Excellent article on the M1 here (Emphasis added):

TFB Armorer’s Bench: M1 Garand Gas System and Ammunition Solutions

The result? Their piece of nostalgia and history ends up damaged or broken. All of that being said let's dive right into the M1 Garand gas system

www.thefirearmblog.com

Regards,
hps

not really excellent at all...mostly opinion.

 

[Jeremy2171]

Hornady dedicates a section of their reloading manual to service rifles to avoid this problem. Sierra's 6th edition has a nice little write up on reloading M1'S and M1A's too hot. M1's are more prone to bending operating rods than M1A's. Powders that are too slow can bend operating rods. Maybe you can reload them the same as any other rifle and things will work out fine. But my M14 wasn't cheap and parts for M1"s and M14's are expensive. I do research before working up reloads for my M14.

I remember when there wasn't specific garand data......and no one was bending oprods.....

 

[nettlle]

I remember when there weren't the modern powders out there that are here these days that the Garand's were not designed for.

 

[Chief TC]

Anyone else not agree

You lubricate the lower part of the op rod that slides against the barrel and receiver, not the upper part. It is in all the tech manuals. Also, tons of info on port pressure negatively affecting op rods. Too heavy bullets and low burn rate powders can cause this. All well known.

 

[Jeremy2171]

You lubricate the lower part of the op rod that slides against the barrel and receiver, not the upper part. It is in all the tech manuals.

The critical area is the oprod bolt cam angle. No lube there and you are asking for trouble.

 

[Jeremy2171]

I remember when there weren't the modern powders out there that are here these days that the Garand's were not designed for.

what is a "modern powder" and what powder was the garand designed for?

 

[Chief TC]

The critical area is the oprod bolt cam angle. No lube there and you are asking for trouble.

Correct, this is part of it that slides up against the barrel and the receiver. You don't lube the long cylindrical part.

 

[nettlle]

Modern powders would be the ones formulated after the these rifles were designed. I don't know what powders are out there that the Garand's are not designed for. That's exactly why I do research before working up a new load.

 

[Jeremy2171]

Correct, this is part of it that slides up against the barrel and the receiver. You don't lube the long cylindrical part.

No this isn't the barrel saddle area.

This is inside the oprod "hump" where the cam that unlocks the bolt is located.

This must be greased for proper long term life of the oprod.

 

[Jeremy2171]

Modern powders would be the ones formulated after the these rifles were designed. I don't know what powders are out there that the Garand's are not designed for. That's exactly why I do research before working up a new load.

Correct and the dangers of hurting a properly greased and in spec garand is virtually nil... even with powders on the slower end of the spectrum.


Remember the garand gas system is already depressurizing before the oprod even moves.

 

[Chief TC]

No this isn't the barrel saddle area.

This is inside the oprod "hump" where the cam that unlocks the bolt is located.

This must be greased for proper long term life of the oprod.

Yes, I understand and agree. This is what I was referring to as the part of op rod that is sliding up against the receiver portion of the rifle.

 

[Chief TC]

Correct and the dangers of hurting a properly greased and in spec garand is virtually nil... even with powders on the slower end of the spectrum.


Remember the garand gas system is already depressurizing before the oprod even moves.

You are the only one I have seen state this. The experts disagree with you. And to be clear, I am not an expert, so maybe you are correct, but everything reliable I have read states the opposite of what you are saying,

 

[nettlle]

Correct and the dangers of hurting a properly greased and in spec garand is virtually nil... even with powders on the slower end of the spectrum.


Remember the garand gas system is already depressurizing before the oprod even moves.

Do you even reload?