180 grain .357 loads

[Nightcrawler]

How come there aren't very many 180 grain .357 loads geared towards self-defense? Most 180 grain loads feature solid or soft-point bullets, for penetration in animals.

Why is this? An 180 grain bullet in of itself doesn't mean too much penetration. There are numerous 185 grain .45ACP +P loads out there. A 180 grain .357 load could easily match this performance.

Also, I went ammo shopping today. I have a bit of a gripe. Most .357 ammo is watered down. I understand that follow up shots are important, but I don't think a 158 grain bullet at 1,300 to 1,375 feet per second would be uncontrollable from a full-sized revolver. As is you're lucky if the 158 grain loads exceed 1200 feet per second! Some manufacturers' listed velocities are from an eight inch barrel.

 

[Cosmoline]

VERY good question, and one that's been on my mind. The best bullets I can find are the Hornady XTP JHP's. I've got some 2400 and plan on working up some short barrel defense loads this summer.

 

[444]

Why ?

Isn't the 125 grain .357 load supposed to be the ultimate defenisve load ?

Seriously, what do you have in mind with the heavier bullet ?

 

[Hook686]

Although I read a lot of chat boards recommending the Winchester 180 Partition Gold for hunting deer, etc. ... it is my understanding that that is a personal defense round. You might check around the web for any additional information on this cartridge.

Good luck ....

 

[Cosmoline]

There are long threads discussing the relative merits of the "hi-vel" 125 grain .357 loads vs. the heavier ones. IMHO you're giving up the best advantages of the .357 with such bullets. They expand too quickly and the "energy dump" theory justifying their use has all the merits of old man Sedgwick's perpetual motion machine. A bigger round leaving a bigger exit wound is going to kill a man faster just as it kills a pig faster.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Isn't the 125 grain .357 load supposed to be the ultimate defenisve load ?

People say that. But to me, it's like arguing that you don't need 230 grain .45 loads because the 185 grain is the best out there. It's like, prove it, you know?

Mainly I'm curious. Most other handgun cartridges have defensive loads in a variety of weights. In .357 it's almost all 110 and 125, with a few over 125. The rest is considered "hunting" ammunition.

 

[Surefire]

I like the 158 grain loads the best--best combination of power and recoil control IMO. I use the Hydra Shok load, since there are so few defensive 158 grain loads.

To me, the 125 grain loads are way too snappy for my liking, and the 180 and 200 grain loads don't have good defensive bullets (most are hunting bullets).


Having said this, I would use 180 grain bullets in .357 magnum if the right bullets came out.

 

[Steve C]

Why is this? An 180 grain bullet in of itself doesn't mean too much penetration. There are numerous 185 grain .45ACP +P loads out there. A 180 grain .357 load could easily match this performance.

You're forgetting about the bullet diameter and subsequent impact area. The .357 mag pushes about a 37% smaller hole than the .45 acp and has a significantly higher velocity so it penetrates through things easier.

Heavy bullets along with solid bullets have a track record of punching a through and through hole, esp with rather small and thin skinned humans. Putting a hole through someone even if the exit would is large doesn't make for good stopping power unless the hole is in a vital organ, disrupts the central nervous system or clips enough arteries or veins to blead out the bad guy.

The 125gr JHP has a well deserved reputation as having great stopping power but for the most part thats because it is a very lethal bullet. The current tendency to look at wound chanel and cavity as the best indicator of stopping power may not be totaly correct. Everything I've read about the Remington 125gr SJHP .357 mag loading has said the bullet fragements parts of its non jacketed tip that in turn creates a lot of tissue, vascular and organ damage as they disperse from the core base which penetrates on deeper into the body. Is it a perfect bullet? No, and there is anecdotal stories of its failure. That's why in MS data its only rated at 98% effective since there's 2% of the time its not.

Even the .45 has its failures. There's the story of the citizen in this months "American Riflemans - Armed Citizen" who shot a guy that was in the process of attacking a police officer 4 times with a .45 acp in the body and finnaly put the attacker down with a shot to the head as the previous 4 rounds hadn't been effective. This was in addition to the round the police officer had already put into him.

 

[only1asterisk]

The best 180 grain .357 bullets I've found that might work for SD are the remington bulk JHP. The hollow point cavity may be small, but the lead is dead soft. They work really well on small deer.

David

 

[Nightcrawler]

That's why in MS data its only rated at 98% effective since there's 2% of the time its not.

Haven't Marshall and Sanow been completely discredited by now? I don't think anything out there is 98% effective, in terms of handgun rounds.

 

[MCgunner]

Haven't Marshall and Sanow been completely discredited by now? I don't think anything out there is 98% effective, in terms of handgun rounds.

Not to me, but I ain't goin' there in this thread. Can't bring it up anywhere on this board without a bunch of big bullet gurus jumpin' on it, so forget it.

The 125 grain loads are THE self defense loads, minimized over-penetration, lots of energy on target. The heavier bullets are more appropriate on game that is thicker skinned than humans. Over-penetration is not a problem in hunting nor is an immediate stop that important, otherwise, no one would bow hunt.

Hunting and SD are apples and oranges. Go with the 125 grainer and be happy. It's what most agencies carried when .357s were king of the police service gun. It has a great track record. Don't see why you'd wanna screw THAT up with an over-penetrating bullet that could get you in trouble with collateral damage just because of what you've read or something from some guru that didn't know anymore what he was talking about than anyone else.

For any given load, you're going to find those that prefer the heavies and those that prefer the lighter bullets, though. To me, 9mm don't get no better'n a +P 115 grain JHP, but there persists the 147 grain crowd out there. Same is true for .45, the 185s vs the 230s. So, do what makes you happy and I'll do the same. But, to answer the original question, lighter bullets in .357 are intended for self defense, the heavies are hunting loads and that's just sorta the way it is. There are some good 140 grain bullets out there. I shoot a speer 140 grain bullet SCREAMIN' out of a 4" barrel with a heavy load of 2400. It's packing over 700 ft lbs. I think it'd do the job. Primary reason I like the load is accuracy, though. It's unreal accurate in most guns I've fired it in. It's quite warm, a good bit warmer than anything you can get in a factory box.

I like a hard cast gas checked 158 grain Lee SWC for hunting. I also have a Hornady XTP 180 grain hollowpoint I load for the Blackhawk. It's a bit warm in anything else. I use AA#9 for it. It is a hunting bullet, not for self defense. I'd use this load on Hogs if I were going to use the .357, lots of penetration on a hard target. Not necessary for deer, but it is quite accurate.

 

[Cosmoline]

minimized over-penetration, lots of energy on target.

Agreed, the 125 is better at these things. But the point is, there is no evidence to suggest either of these factors is helpful in a self defense situations. If you want to have your bullets work, you want them to open up and penetrate all the way through, making as big an exit wound as possible. This will cause onset of shock from blood loss much faster with a human just as it will with game. The ft. lbs. of "energy dump" from a handgun are no greater than a punch to the chest. In and of itself this energy does NADA to bring a man down. The human body can withstand a lot more raw energy than any handgun can deliver.

"Overpentration" is a bizarre myth cooked up by salesmen trying to sell smaller, faster bullets. There's no real world evidence to suggest that it's an actual problem. Once a 180 grain bullet expands and exits, most of its force will be spent and the chances of it hitting someone after that are next to nil. The key to making 180 grain bullets effective is bullet design.

 

[_N4Z_]

+1 the heavy

I too like the heavy round for SD, and pretty much everything else.

Usually keep 158's on hand because they are easier to find than the 180's and not as expensive. Most are watered down as has been pointed out which for high volume shooting that can be a good thing. I like the inexpensive CCI Blazer 158 in such cases. Keep the stouter Remington (or equivalent) for bad guys.

Federal 180gr sjhp's are good (keep those on hand when I can find them)along with the aforementioned Gold Parts. They aren't cheap though.

This morning I ran some Aguilla sjhp 158's thru my gp100 and they exhibited a respectable kick and didn't break the bank.

 

[MCgunner]

Cosmoline, I ain't gonna argue, just that I disagree with you on the importance of energy.

The thing is, though, the 125 is the go to weight for self defense in .357. The heavies are for hunting in this caliber. If you find that not to your liking, perhaps you should think about moving to .44 special or .45 acp or something. But, the 125 grain .357s are proven effective, lots of data on 'em, lots of shootings due to the fact that it was the most used load by law enforcement for years. It works. If it ain't broke, why fix it?

If you like penetration above all, try the 300-320 grainers in .44 magnum. You could penetrate a dozen fat guys lined up in a row with that one. A mountain gun in .44 ain't a lot more to tote than a GP100, either.

 

[Cosmoline]

Proven? Hardly. There's also plenty of reports indicating they don't work all that well. But you can always find field reports going either way. There was a long thread on this point last year. The bottom line is, we KNOW how bullets kill. And we KNOW they don't kill by dumping ft. lbs. into a target. They kill in the short run (which is what we want) by either hitting the CNS or doing enough damage to the circulatory system and lungs to cause shock and death. We also KNOW that a larger exit wound will tend to increase blood loss from the body and bring shock on faster.

Somewhere along the line, some clever boys working for the hi-vel outfit decided to try to convince shooters that it was BETTER if your personal defense bullet fails to penetrate. Nevermind the fact that 200 years of ballistic science with ALL OTHER ANIMALS shows that a bullet which fails to penetrate will kill LESS effectively. They cooked up theories of "energy dump" and stoked fears of "overpenetration," neither of which have any basis in reality. As Mythbusters showed and as we've known here for years, the vaunted "energy dump" is barely enough to knock a person back half an inch, let alone kill them.

 

[444]

Most .357 ammo is watered down.

So what would you consider to be a "dry" 180 grain load ?
I am on the way out the door and don't want to research it.
Have to try a new bolt in my suppressed 9mm AR to see if it will fix my malfunction issues before it gets dark.

 

[MCgunner]

I refuse to argue here. I just disagree about totally on the issue, Cosmoline.

Dry 180s, try Buffalo Bore, about the dryest I've seen published. It's dryer than my ultra warm handload with which cases are a little sticky in my Blackhawk when I extract them, a sure sign of too much pressure building. They're throwing down 785 ft lbs and are guarranted to penetrate about anything you want to shoot all the way through and down the block to grandmas house. Look no further than Buffalo Bore if penetration is your greatest desire. They put my 180 grain JHPs to shame and they're using a hard cast bullet for even more penetration. Since energy transfer doesn't matter, they should be mana from heaven for you. :banghead: I guess the only thing better would be a FMJ round nose 180 for even more penetration and even less energy transfer.

Well, according to the stats on THIS sight, they equal my handload. But, they're about as hot as you're going to get either way, handload or store bought. It's the carbine ballistics I was looking at when someone posted about 'em. Out of a carbine, they look like mild .30-30! I definitely can't match that with my press. I give up! I do need to obtain some of these things, but I'm mainly interested in trying 'em in my 20" lever carbine. The ballistics are almost unbelievable. They'd make a heckuva hog load in a carbine if the published ballistics are true.

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#357

BTW, look at .45 Colt on that page. My handload isn't warmed up to that level in .45, well, close, but not quite. I could go hotter, but stopped when recoil started becoming obnoxious. LOL!

 

[P. Plainsman]

I have no opinion on the terminal ballistics of 125s-vs.-heavyweights for self-defense; give me a good .357 Magnum with a quality hollowpoint in any weight and I'll feel adequately armed.

I will say this: in my experience the heavy-bullet .357 Mag rounds tend to be better behaved, even at similar energy levels.

Fast, hot 125s tend to produce a lot of muzzle flash, noise, blowback powder pricking your cheeks, etc. Plenty of recoil, too.

The 158-to-180s I've fired also have a fair amount of recoil (though it's no big deal in a steel-frame holster gun) but are less vituperative to the shooter -- definitely including Buffalo Bore's 180 slammer, which I've tried in my GP100 and found to be far better mannered than you'd think for the numbers involved.

Just my experience.

 

[MCgunner]

Plainsman's post reminded me of the indoor shooting range we had for about 3 months 20 odd years ago. I went there and fired my Security Six, about 2 boxes of 125 grain hollowpoint. For a day or two, it felt like I'd sunburned my face. LOL! Actually, I don't carry .357 for defense, carry .38+P a lot in a snubbie. It's loaded with 140 grain Speers, a +P handload. Sort of hypocritical after all that .357 power talk, eh????? ROFLMAO!

I do believe it's not so much what you're shooting, but who's behind it. Put 'em where they'll work and keep squeezing till the fight stops is the best answer to some of these threads I've seen yet.

 

[Nightcrawler]

I've already explained what I think is watered down .357. A 158 grain bullet barely pushing 1,200 fps out of a 6" barrel is pretty watered down. 1350 fps would be a more reasonable number for that load and barrel length.

180 grains at 1,200 is more like it.

 

[SAWBONES]

Same old stuff.

"Even the .45 has its failures."
Har!

Of course it does. ALL handgun rounds which can be easily carried in readily portable, concealable handguns are wimpy. We carry them not because they're wonderfully effective but because they're better than trusting to hands, feet and stern language.

"One shot stops", a genuinely unmeasurable quantity, occuring "19 times out of 20, or maybe just a little bit more" with the .45ACP (per Jeff Cooper) are fantasy IMNSHO. I have only respect for Col. Cooper, but attributing such impressive effectiveness to a 230gr .45" FMJ bullet at 850fps, and assuming that a .357" JHP 158gr bullet placed in an identical location would do notably worse, is intuitively silly.
Given sufficient penetration, the damage done should be quite similar.

I'm a big fan of the .45ACP BTW, and I do happen to think that bigger, heavier bullets are likely to be more effective against violent sociopaths than smaller, lighter bullets, given equivalent hits (since penetration to something important is more likely to occur), but I wouldn't expect too much from any type or size of handgun bullet, and would be prepared to fire and move repeatedly till the threat was gone.
Old news, I know, but these types of threads recur with surprising regularity nonetheless.

In .357 Magnum, I usually carry rounds with 158-180gr JHP bullets because of their likelihood of deeper penetration and their easier controllability than the 125gr+P JHP loads.
You may have a different opinion.

 

[JohnKSa]

But the point is, there is no evidence to suggest either of these factors is helpful in a self defense situations.

That is absolutely incorrect. It is heavily debated and there is lots of disagreement on the subject, but there is definitely evidence that suggests it. Just as there is evidence that suggests the opposite.

This topic is nowhere as clear cut as your statement implies.

But you can always find field reports going either way.

In fact, the above quote HEAVILY implies that you are aware of the existence of such evidence. It is one thing to say you disagree with evidence--quite another to say it doesn't exist.

the vaunted "energy dump" is barely enough to knock a person back half an inch, let alone kill them

If something knocked someone back, that would be momentum transfer, NOT energy. The Mythbuster test has zero relevance to determining the effectiveness of energy.

Given that kinetic energy scientifically quantifies the potential of a projectile to do damage, there is no way to simply dismiss it as a factor when determining the effectiveness of a projectile. I'm certainly not saying it's the ONLY factor--that would be equally incorrect.

 

[flatdog]

I suggest using the load with which you can destroy the CNS or circulatory system as quickly as possible. Use the heaviest load you can deliver as accurately and quickly as possible. Recoil may be the deciding factor in all this.

Your already in a bad way, if you have to use a pistol, they just aren't that powerful regardless of caliber.

 

[Cosmoline]

Given that kinetic energy scientifically quantifies the potential of a projectile to do damage, there is no way to simply dismiss it as a factor when determining the effectiveness of a projectile. I'm certainly not saying it's the ONLY factor--that would be equally incorrect.

POTENTIAL DAMAGE. Yes. And a bullet that only makes one hole in one side of the torso and disintigrates is going to do LESS effective damage than one which hits, opens up, and blasts a fist-size hole out the back. The goal is not to "dump energy." Nobody dies from "dumped energy." Period. It doesn't happen. Ever. They die from DAMAGE TO KEY SYSTEMS. And the specific tissues you must rip into are either the CNS or heart/lung. The goal in either case is to stop the attacker by ending the beating of his heart and the movement of his limbs as quickly as possible.

Centuries of experience with ALL ANIMALS has shown that the fastest way to do this is with maximum tissue damage and a large exit wound for the blood to flow freely out of. This is why a hunting round that opens and falls apart is UNIVERSALLY considered a FAILURE. There is no scientific evidence whatsoever that a bullet opening up and not exiting a human is going to kill that human faster than one making a good exit wound after opening up. Nobody can explain why it should kill people sooner, or how pure energy "dumped" into the target is supposed to kill them.

Thus, if the bullets are properly selected, the 158 to 180 grain range of HP rounds for the .357 is bound to be a better killer than the 125 grain range in that same caliber.

Your already in a bad way, if you have to use a pistol, they just aren't that powerful regardless of caliber.

Absolutely. Which is why I don't want to make matters worse by choosing some dinky little 125 grain slug that some bright boy has actually DESIGNED to fail on impact. Now, in contrast I have no problem loading my Mosin with 125 grain SP's for personal defense. At over 3,000 fps there isn't a man on the planet who could survive a torso hit with one of those buggers. If you can give me .357 125'ers moving at that speed then we might be talking. But of course it's impossible. So I choose to hedge my bets with a little more gravitas.

 

[JohnKSa]

And a bullet that only makes one hole in one side of the torso and disintigrates is going to do LESS effective damage than one which hits, opens up, and blasts a fist-size hole out the back.

Incorrect. The amount of damage done by a projectile is not necessarily dependent on the amount of penetration even if we limit this discussion to handgun projectiles.

Nobody dies from "dumped energy." Period. It doesn't happen. Ever.

Incorrect even if we limit this discussion to handgun projectiles. It depends on the amount of dumped energy. It is certainly possible to dump enough energy into a person to kill them. Not likely at handgun levels, but not impossible either. The common load for the 125gr JHP has roughly the same amount of energy as a swung baseball bat. That's not likely to be lethal without penetration, but it could be under the proper circumstances.

Thus, if the bullets are properly selected, the 158 to 180 grain range of HP rounds for the .357 is bound to be a better killer than the 125 grain range in that same caliber.

First of all, self-defense is NOT exclusively about which round is the "better killer". Second, even if it were, your statement implies that this topic is far more clear cut and straightforward than it really is.

I'm not necessarily saying that your opinions about bullet choice are completely incorrect, only that your statements elevate your opinions to the level of fact. The evidence does not support such sweeping and general conclusions.