180 grain .357 loads

[DWARREN123]

Too many airweight revolvers for the big stuff. Can you imagine holding on to an airweight snubbie firing a hunting round!

 

[roo_ster]

I, Too, Would Like More Heavy .357mag Rounds

Kinetic energy is a scientifically defined and measurable quantity...

Good, so far...

...that measures the potential of a projectile to cause damage.

Strangely enough, none of my physics courses defined KE as such.

These sources define KE in a way I am more familiar with:
http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/GBSSCI/PHYS/Class/energy/u5l1c.html
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/ke.html

Fellow physics grads might get a kick out of this text/graphical explanation of work:

Can you imagine holding on to an airweight snubbie firing a hunting round!

Yep. My carry round for my Taurus 651 Ti snubby (17oz) is Winchester's 180gr Nos Partition Gold HP. Shoots to POA at 7 yards (125gr & 158gr mags & spls did not...POI was 7-12" off POA). It travels at 1000ft/sec 10' from the muzzle of my snubby, losing only 100ft/sec to Winchester's 8" bbl.

This particular round is much easier on the shooter than equivalent full-power 125gr & 158gr magnums. A lot less drama. 125gr magnums are the king of muzzle blast.

I carry it for those reasons:
1. POI=POA @7 yards
2. Less sturm & drang than lighter magnums
3. I expect the HP will perform as advertised...and then the lower part of the partition will penetrate, too.

 

[JohnKSa]

From your second link:

"Kinetic energy is an expression of the fact that a moving object can do work on anything it hits; it quantifies the amount of work the object could do as a result of its motion. "​

'Work', when speaking about terminal ballistics, is tissue damage.

 

[RyanM]

Actually, no. Work is simply the exertion of force by the bullet on tissues. This work can be expressed as tissue damage, or it can be expressed uselessly, as vibration, noise, small temporary cavitation, etc. Also, all energy in the bullet eventually turns into heat, after impact. For the same amount of energy, and the same amount of work done, a huge cannonball will often do more damage than a small caliber bullet.

 

[JohnKSa]

If you replace the word "work" with the words "tissue damage" in the definition quoted from the second link, the resulting sentence is not in error.

You are correct in that not all the energy results in tissue damage just as not all the energy results in "work done on things it hits". Energy quantifies the work/tissue damage the object "COULD" do, just as the definition says.

BTW, "work", as used in the quote, is a carefully defined scientific term. Just because energy is dissipated or converted does not mean work has been done just as it is true that there are ways to dissipate energy without doing tissue damage.

 

[RyanM]

Yes, but just as there are ways of converting energy that don't do work, there are ways of doing work on tissue that don't result in damage. Like the stretching of the temporary cavity doesn't cause much damage at small diameters, even though work is done. Which basically just means that energy is even less of a correlative factor with tissue damage, given that energy correlates most closely with temporary cavity volume, and not much at all with tissue crushed. Even damage resulting from temporary cavity doesn't correlate with the cavity volume, it correlates with the diameter at a particular point.

 

[DBR]

There is one important difference between the use of deadly force in self defense and the killing of an animal in hunting which no one has mentioned.

What matters in self defense is not ultimately killing the threat, but rather stopping/neutralizing the threat as rapidly as possible whether or not you kill it.

In hunting, what matters is ultimately killing the prey even if you have to follow the blood trail for some distance and for some time to collect it.

In self defense temporary effects matter. In hunting generally only permanent effects matter. A slow bleed out works for a hunter but not for a human trying to survive a deadly attack.

 

[JohnKSa]

...there are ways of doing work on tissue that don't result in damage.

=

...there are ways to dissipate energy without doing tissue damage.

Kinetic energy measures the POTENTIAL of a projectile to do work or to damage tissue. For various reasons, the work or tissue damage ACTUALLY done is always less than the potential.

If I understand you correctly, your argument is that not all work is tissue damage--even if I accept that for the sake of argument (it sounds reasonable enough)--it is still true that all tissue damage IS work. So, I will rephrase my original comment.

Instead of my saying "'Work', when speaking about terminal ballistics, is tissue damage.", I believe you will agree with the following statement.

When speaking about terminal ballistics, one can replace the word 'work' with the words 'tissue damage' in the definition from the second link for the purpose of understanding how kinetic energy relates to tissue damage.

So the paraphrased quote from the second link would be:

"Kinetic energy is an expression of the fact that a moving object can do tissue damage on a living target; it quantifies the amount of tissue damage the object could do as a result of its motion."​

 

[joneb]

I've been considering 180gr loads for my 4" .357 the appeal to me is good penatration at a sub-sonic velocity , if I can reduce hearing damage defending against a two or four legged threat, then why not ?

 

[Michael Courtney]

"Energy transfer" is mainly expressed as temporary cavity size, since that's the only factor which correlates well with energy.

Pressure wave magnitude correlates with energy transfer as well.

Michael Courtney

 

[Michael Courtney]

There's also apparently some evidence, according to Michael Courtney, that the blunt trauma caused by the temporary cavity will cause a compressive pressure wave with enough force to cause damage to the central nervous system, even if the temporary cavity itself does not intersect with any structures of the CNS.

A couple of fine points:

The compressive pressure wave and the temporary cavity are related, but it is not quite correct to assert that the temporary cavity causes the compressive pressure wave. The leading edge of the pressure wave has passed before the tissue is stretched to maximum, so it is hard to see the temporary cavity as causing the wave. A secondary pressure wave is caused by the squeezing of tissue between the edges of the temporary cavity and the rib cage or skin. This trading back and forth between kinetic and potential energy is common to wave phenomena.

We have both observed tissue destruction and blunt force trauma in cases where there is a substantial pressure wave. Since the blunt force trauma is beyond the reach of the temporary cavity it seems due to the pressure wave. However, we have no way of knowing whether this blunt force trauma resulted from the leading edge of the pressure wave that preceeded the temporary cavitation or from the squeezing of tissue associated with the temporary cavity. Nor can we exclude the sonic component of the wave as a causal factor in tissue injury.

Michael Courtney

 

[MCgunner]

if I can reduce hearing damage defending against a two or four legged threat, then why not

That's a reason I choose the .38+P for home defense and either it or the 9mm for carry. The magnum (pressure wave) out the end of the barrel is enough to damage my cochlear tissue, I know that! I think a .38+P is enough and I KNOW it's a lot easier on my ears indoors. If I'm hunting or in the woods outdoors, that's one thing, but indoors I don't wanna put up with a .357 level of muzzle blast no matter the load. Just me, though. A possible relief is to have your "game ears" next to your bed, but no thanks, I'll stick with the .38.

 

[revolvergeek]

Personally, I would like to see Speer come out with a 170-175 Godl Dot designed like the 135 bullet with a BIG opening and loaded around 1100 FPS. Should have good energy, good penetration and BIG expansion.

 

[joneb]

A 170grn bullet with a muzzle velocity of 1,100 FPS say from a 4" barrel would provide 457 ft/lbs of E , but shot from a 2 1/2" barrel should be sub-sonic given the temperature is right. If the velocity were 1,050, the ft/lbs of E would = 397
I think with the Gold dot bullet this would be a excellent defense load for the .357 mag.