1851 .36 range report

[pohill]

I fired my newly acquired Colt 1851 .36 (original) last week. A few things I noticed that are different from the Italian and 3rd Generation guns...
I used .380 roundballs, and they did not shave a ring at all. I don't think the chamber mouths are chamfered (bevelled) - I think it just needs larger balls.
I used #11 caps and they were too small. I pushed them on with a dowel and they split.
I used about 15 grs of Goex black powder.
At 50 yds, the gun fired high. It performed perfectly, though, as far as functioning.
One big difference in this gun is the wedge screw - it has a large, oversized head and it actually contacts the wedge and acts as a depth set. The barrel/frame connection of this gun is tight.
I shot it, now I'll just admire it for now. Replicas are made to shoot.
I also brought my Pietta 1860 .44 Army, one of the smoothest guns I own.

 

[Ginormous]

Pics, or it didn't happen.

 

[pohill]

Good point. I kicked myself for not bringing the camera (almost broke my hip).

 

[arcticap]

Remington #11's in the old green and white tins from about 10 years ago were very oversized. I have one nipple that I didn't want to reduce in size and these older #11's are the only caps that will fit it. They're the Remington "Golden" caps with the gold color primer material. They still surface at gun shows and may fit your Colt nipples better.

 

[Hellgate]

Just try the newer Remington #11 caps as they are larger than the RWS 1075 and the CCI#11s.

 

[arcticap]

The older Remington #11's are closer to being #12's (if they're not #11.5's).
The new Remington #11's are not anywhere near as large as the older ones. Plus Pohill said that #11's are too small.
The fact that he said that he had a problem with the current #11 cap size is the reason I mentioned anything about the older Remington caps at all.

 

[pohill]

Which brings me back to this (I think they had more choices "back in the day", probably because of the larger discrepancy in cap sizes back then)

"Percussion caps are now made in sizes from nine to thirteen. Ten and eleven are the best numbers for the small and medium-sized arms, and twelve for the larger sizes, although, as different-sized nipples are sometimes met in specimens of the same model, no hard and fast rule can be given. It is better to have caps slightly too large than too small, as large caps can be pinched together at the bottom enough so they will stay on the nipples, but small ones must be driven down on the nipple by the blow of the hammer, and this process frequently cushions the blow to the extent of producing a misfire."

 

[scrat]

no pics then it didnt happen. hahahah

 

[arcticap]

I measured the internal diameter of a couple of each and came up with these measurements:

Old - .1745, .1755
New - .1695, .1680

 

[Hellgate]

Pohill didn't mention who made his #11 caps. The Remingtons are a little bigger than the CCI #11s.
Smallest to largest (based on factory nipple fit):
RWS # 1055
CCI#10
RWS#1075
Rem #10
CCI#11
Rem#11

 

[Ginormous]

That's a handy list to have Hellgate, thanks.

 

[mykeal]

Results of my measurements on at least 20 samples of each size and brand listed:

The opening diameter measurement is very difficult with calipers,:banghead: so the error on those is probably between 0,002" and 0.004". But, they're all averages anyway.

 

[Ginormous]

I am doing my darnedest to measure my lot of RWS 1075's, CCI #10's, and CCI #11's with a slide caliper. I cannot for the life of me get three readings on the same cap within .006". Some where around here I have an expensive vernier micrometer, but its' current hiding place escapes me at the moment. Sometimes you just can't find what you need when you need it. Probably means it's time to clean up my bench.

 

[Hellgate]

One of the things that makes cap selection difficult is the length of the cap and the taper of the nipple (also called cones). A longer cap may snug up prematurely on the tapered cone even though it has a slightly larger diameter. It'll seem real tight but the priming mix is still a few hundredths off the end of the cone. A misfire can occur due to the striking energy being taken up by the first whack merely seating the cap further onto the cone. A second whack may then set the cap off and fire the chamber. I like the Remington #10s as they are more forgiving and pre split so as you seat them they will more readily flare out to match the shape of the cone whereas a harder cap like the CCI will not "give" and require a pretty hard push to make it seat (i.e. bottom out) onto the cone. That is why my list of sizes doesn't match the measured diameters for smallest to largest. The Treso nipples/cones are longer and less tapered than the Pietta, ASM, Euroarms or Uberti cones. Both a shorter narrower cap and a longer wider cap may fit the same nipple because the diameter of the nipple (CONE) increases as you measure down the shank. So, there is variation not only in cap size (both length and width) but also in nipple/cone taper.

 

[pohill]

The caps were Dixie Gun Works #11 caps (pretty old) made in Belgium. They seem to be extra long which might be the problem, as Hellgate said.

 

[arcticap]

I measured the length of 4 new Remington #11 with Mitutoyo digital calipers and they came out to: .1450, .1530, .1530 & .1535

These new Remington's were purchased from Walmart some years ago so maybe each batch is different, or each die used on their machines have slightly different spec.'s or they have changed their spec.'s slightly over the years.

The length of my old Remington #11's measured: .1770, .1785, .1785 & .1785

 

[mykeal]

Caps cost, approximately, 4 cents apiece. You don't get 4 digit precision for 4 cents.

The quest for 'the right size caps' for a given gun is futile. Caps vary by batch and probably within batches. Add to that variations in nipple size and shape from manufacturer to manufacturer and even within each manufacturer's production on a product that costs about $4 and you can see the problem.

The forums are full of posts about, "I can't keep caps on my Pietta 1851 Navy. What size should I use?" followed by testimonials that each and every size ever made works just fine on somebody else's Pietta 1851 Navy. (You can insert any gun make and model you'd like in the preceding.)

There is no specification controlling cap and/or nipple dimensions. Cap makers don't make nipples and vice versa; they're free to do whatever they want, so if tools wear a bit and it costs money to replace them, well, the next batch is going to be a bit off. Whether or not a certain "size" cap will work on a given gun is pure speculation, and once a size and brand are found, there's no guarantee that that size and brand will continue to work from batch to batch.

Bottom line: we just need to learn to live with it. Buy a few of each size and brand and use whatever works, and when that stops working, try something else.

 

[Ginormous]

Caps cost, approximately, 4 cents apiece. You don't get 4 digit precision for 4 cents.

Or even 3 digit, apparently. My futile attempt to quantify outside, inside, and length dimensions of several brands of percussion caps leads me to the same conclusion. But it was a great diversion while participating in a call in meeting, however!

 

[pohill]

There's always Tap O Cap - I have one but I cannot find any dependable ignition source. I've tried the little red rolled cap centers, plastic cap centers, match heads...